To re-valve or not to re-valve – that is the question
For the 25 caliber Condor, is it worth the extra effort and cost to do any work on the stock valve, or simply upgrade or replace it ?
What do I get for what I have to put into each step ?
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After reviewing all that has been said, I guees my original quest was to know whether I could throw a 62.7 gr 6-ring and a 26 gr Predator out of the same setup (powerwheel setting changed of course).
My present setup is eveything stock, except for a 95 gram Tony hammer. To do that and stay in the sweet zone and figuring the minimum and maxium FPE, I would need a range of FPE from 52 to 95.
I’m guessing I would be at maximum of 78 FPE, based on Tony’s site saying his tune does 90 (43.2 gr at 950 fps = ~87 fpe) and that setup will gain 50 fps from tunes other then just the hammer.
Any idea what a setup like mine will give me from low to high powerwheel for FPE range?
62.7 gr at 750 fps = 78.33 fpe
62.7 gr at 775 fps = 83.64 fpe
62.7 gr at 800 fps = 89.13 fpe
62.7 gr at 825 fps = 94.78 fpe
26.0 gr at 950 fps = 52.12 fpe
35.8 gr at 950 fps = 71.76 fpe
43.2 gr at 950 fps = 86.59 fpe
The Condor is a powerhouse… Any more spring will just beat the shit out of the rifle and the valve… 😉 The airarcher kit is for arrows not pellets and the arrows weight far more than pellets…
I tuned my Condor valve down to shoot 31 grain 25 cal pellets at 1000fps in a Talon frame. 😕
Do you have a chrony?
The Airarcher kits are primarily for arrows, but it has also translated well for me shooting Jerry’s slugs. for lighter pellets like the Kings its just to much.
The arrow conversions require the tophat to be fully turned out. The bored out valve spring retainer keeps the top hat from bottoming out.
The modified v spring retainer allows for a deeper plung of the v stem inside the tank. A stock valve spring retainer would not allow the benifit of the heavier hammer and the tophat and stem would be taking a beating 😯
Also the one pc barrel bushing that replaces the PW allows for the maximum powerstroke of the heavier hammer.
A heavier hammer also means a longer hammer which automaticly puts some preload on the hammer spring. to much preload nullifies the benefit of a heavy hammer and also makes the gun harder to cock.
I tried a lot of different hammer springs weights to find the one that would optimize the heavy hammer without abusing the valve.
The hammer and spring look a little menacing, but together with the valve kit its a very well balanced system.
For the arrows,slugs and EJs I’ve found this approach for more air yield to work best.
Porting the valve is another method that comes with its own set of checks and balances. porting if combined with the Airarcher set up would most likely produce blowback and an airdump.
In this pic notice the longer valve spring and how far down into the bored out retainer it goes.
I will keep you all fully informed – stay tuned.
😉
RC, is the powerwheel replacement thing “ferrel” longer than the original powerwheel?
Breeches are cheap and that is why they get messed up. Even my Talon breech which wasn’t used for anything but normal shooting was deformed over time. Something tells me AG1 doesn’t want to be buying the same stuff over and over.
Someone needs to make a full custom valve with a stem ID that is larger than the Condor. That way heavier springs and hammers aren’t necessary to get more air from the tank. 😉
Looking at what a few folks have done and the number of shots the tanks can handle I can see twenty full power shots plus from an super-hi-flo valve being totally possible for a 25 cal Condor.
That way the tank and valve can be changed and more velocity gained instead of having to take the barrel out and switch stuff around. Plus I think the heavy hammers and the stiffer springs impart a “springer” like feel to the cycling action of the rifle when shot. Maybe I just noticed it more going from the Talon to Condor conversion.
I was more than impressed with the power from the Condor setup. Honestly I didn’t think it was even possible for an airgun to make that kind of energy. 😉
I’m interested to see what AG1 thinks about the whole thing after he gets back from some trial runs. 😀 Most people usually say “holy shit!!!”. 😆
Excellent conversations – I will stick with what I have so far and be satifisied with 6 rings at 800.
Thanks so much for hte expansive feedback.
Syn,
Yeah that is why I told him to chrony it and see what it would do.
I have had my rifle for over 2 years now and it is just starting to do what I want.
Collectable? One of the things about being good comunicators in script like you and I are, is that we can find out where the other party is going or thinking, but we have to ask or infer first.
As far as the Derlin, breeches are cheap, as are tophats and valve stems.
Yes, Tagdagger made that ferrel to try Jerry’s slugs in his gun with his valve parts and spring/hammer combo. I bought two of them from him and sold one with my first airarcher. It is made for the rifle barrel.
Your right about the heavy springs and hammers eating guns, but they eat themselves with stock parts anyway. They also make the rifles a little harder to shoot too, but I like pushing these things as far as I can.
Someday I will tell you about 2400 FPS in a 7 lb 45/70, or 2900 with 250 Noslers in a 6 lb 340 Weatherby, both were examples of perhaps pushing things too far. 😆
Regards,
Roachcreek
Collectable? Hunh, how did you get that from me just letting him know he may beat the shit out of his valve stem and breech?
Many folks who put in heavy springs end up with a gun that won’t hold the breech open because the sear eats up the end of the delrin and causes issues. Or they release the safety and the gun fires.
Collectable? 🙄
RC, AG1 hasn’t even shot one pellet through his rifle and is looking to go up in power. Nothing wrong with it but from my personal experience it’s a powerful valve and is totally capable of shooting 6 rings at a good velocity and excellent accuracy at 50 yards without modification… Unless he wants to be changing out the internals to shoot anything but super heavies he may want to try out the rifle first. 😉
RC these guns aren’t collectibles… They are working guns…! 😉
I don’t think you will be able to turn it down if you get 60g’s up to 900+… But I do think that is possible with the stock setup and a 24″ barrel.
You will need to set your top hat out pretty far (0.12″) and its going to be hot for a 30 grain pellet. I believe there is a 45ish grain EuJin(sp) pellet out there that is pretty accurate that may be more useful with a hot setup.
I would look to add a little more weight to the hammer over a stronger spring or perhaps a balance between the two. The stock hammer and weight is pretty light overall for the heavy slugs. But then you’ll need to remove it for shooting lighter pellets…
Most people are getting the 6 rings to shoot at sub 3/4″ groups at 50 yards with mid 800’s velocities. These slugs don’t slow down much on the way out and will drop looks of small to midrange critters.
What are you looking to do and at what distance?
The ferrel replaces the power wheel, Tagdagger made it so you can use his spring and hammer for pellets.
You may get that kind of power, try you gun and see, they all seem to be different.
The spring is a bitch to cock, and it may indeed hammer the gun to pieces.
Synopsys, to me AF guns are working guns to be used, there is nothing, I repeat nothing collectable about any AF rifle, the main reason for this site is to mod guns.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Just got a chrony. I want to shoot 6 rings (60.2 gr) at 950 and anything less I can turn the wheel down for.
You think I can do that with stock sping and 85 gram hammer ?
Why?
The Condor is a powerhouse… Any more spring will just beat the shit out of the rifle and the valve… 😉 The airarcher kit is for arrows not pellets and the arrows weight far more than pellets…
I tuned my Condor valve down to shoot 31 grain 25 cal pellets at 1000fps in a Talon frame. 😕
Do you have a chrony?
Just got the replacement tank from AirForce today with unbent top hat, so haven’t pulled the trigger yet.
Still curious about the specs on that beefier main spring and what AirArcher does to the valve.
What are you currently shooting and at what speed?
I believe the Condor is capable of producing acceptable velocities and accuracy for nearly all the pellets and slugs out there except perhaps the 9-ring Surefire slugs…
Please explain furtrher as you said Airarcher valve, but no picture ?
The ferrel seems to just maybe give a smoother operation to the turn of the power wheel or what ?
What is the spring rated at as I think stock is 4.1 lbft or something close.
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Did some quick calculations and this is the results:
43.2 Eunjun…in Condor, .25 caliber, 24 inch barrel
Tony’s tune (hammer valve work, polish, etc.):
86.5 FPE – 950 FPS – Valve (other) efficiency – 79.75 %
Stock with Tony’s 95 gram hammer:
74.2 FPE – 879 FPS – Valve efficiency – 61.62 %
62.7 6-ring…in Condor, .25 caliber, 24 inch barrel
Tony’s tune (hammer valve work, polish, etc.):
89.3 FPE – 801 FPS – Valve (other) efficiency – 79.75 %
Stock with Tony’s 95 gram hammer:
78.1 FPE – 749 FPS – Valve efficiency – 61.62 %
The part that I don’t know is what is the specs on a 26 gr pellet out of a Tony tuned Condor.
Can the airgun be turned down to keep the 26 gr pellet under 950 FPS at 2800 psi ?
Best guess is the Tony tuned airgun is going to have to be down at 1350 psi to keep a 26 gr pellet down to 950 fps when the powerwheel is turned up.
So if the only real quick change is the powerwheel, does the powewheel have the range to go from a high of 62.7 gr at 950 fps to a low of 26 gr at 950 fps at 2800 psi ?