CREE XM-L BATTERY TESTS
LI-ION NON-Protected UltraFire TR18650 2400mAh 3.7V SERIES TESTING
UltraFire TR18650 2400mAh 3.7V only look alike ❗
Watch out for some that get HOTTER than others when paired in series in multiple battery Flashlights/Torchs ❗
Even if packaged together and charged together.
I had a new pair that I put in a 1600 lumen Zoom focus torch. After a few minutes of use testing and getting familiar, I decided to time the discharge in 10 minute intervals while checking voltages and temperature to assure I don’t dangerously discharge these NON-PROTECTED lithium ion batteries.
These batteries were included with the Flashlight/Torch and Charger in eBay bids shipped from China. As Cygnus X explained in his posts about the CREE XM-L Flashlight LED, these Non-Protected Li-Ion batteries are dangerous when used in high power Torchs and/or IF recharged from a low voltage. They should not be used below 2.75V per the label. It is suggested that 3V would be a safer low voltage. Li-ion with built in voltage protection (PCB) should probably be the only ones sold with Flashlight/Torchs. The NON-Protected ones have a problem with low voltage that can cause fire and/or explosion either discharging or when being recharged.
MY TESTING:
2 X UltraFire TR18650s in series in my 1600 lm Zoom torch.
After 20 minutes the head of the 1600 lm torch head reached 110 degrees and the batteries were noticeably different temperatures and the hotter had discharged more although they are in series ❓
I switched them around but that made no improvement.
After 20 minutes of high power run time the Zoom torch head reached 118 degrees.
After 30 minutes the rapid discharging battery took a dive to 0.89V and was now 120 degrees while the other still showed 3.4V at 110 degrees. THIS TEST IS DISCONTINUED ❗
HOWEVER…
❓ Allowing the batteries to cool, the seemingly Bad one rose back to 3.20V ❓
2nd test:
Putting the ?Seemingly BAD? battery in 1000 lm 501-B torch.
IT RAN COOL under the lighter load as an individual power supply. After 2 1/2+ hours of periodic voltage test while running at high power, it came down to 3.01V with the torch head running at 98 degrees ❗
I marked this batttery “H” for Hot, so I will remember IT SHOULD NOT be used in my 1600 lm torch as it ran too hot under heavier load.
Conclusion: CAUTION ❗ when running NON-PROTECTED LI-IONs in a flashlight/torch especially when 2 are required in series.
ON-GOING:
I have yet to determine if 2 NON-PROTECTED LI-ION BATTERIES CAN SAFETLY BE PAIRED IN SERIES IN A FLASHLIGHT/TORCH.
All Replies
Viewing 13 replies - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
i forgot
never ever charge your lipos on a combustable surface, dont leave them alone while charging or discharging….
charge in a safe place, if you dont have such a place, then all hobby shops sell lipo charging pouches get one its 5-10$ made out of somekind of inflamable fabric, strong enough to contain fire and potential explosion…its such a cheap solution, that it would be dumb not to
dont charge your batteries in your car…everything in your ride is flamable…get a wire extension and place chargers on the ground…if your car burns to the ground you wont be the first…several people in the RC world have had cars go up in flames because they charged their batteries inside it
good write up….
i dont know your charger, but my 5$ charger is a 2 channel, so in theory each battery should be charged to same voltage
now the problem with cheap batteries is that they vary in capacity….label say’s 2600 mah….but one might only give up 2400 and the other 2600….so one battery will get into a potentially dangerous situation of over discharge, and the other be fine
my rc cars run lipo batteries as well, and several packs contain 2 or 3 cells all wrapped up as a single pack….when discharged too low its often seen that one cell be significantly lower voltage than the other…the fix is to not run them that low simple as that…and to balance charge them, balance charging can only be done on 2 or more cell batteries with a balancing lead…the charger monitors the packs overall voltage, as well as the single cells voltage, if the cells are not equal the balancing features kick in and give the low cell a bit more voltage then the other, or sometimes the balancer will discharge the high voltage cell down to same level as the lowest common denominator
18650 batteries are single cells and as such can not be balanced, BUT if you charge them in the same charger, and the same port of the charger they should come out the same….minus the slight indifference in the capacity, theres nothing that can be done about that other than investing in better made batteries often much more expensive
now why one of your batteries get hotter than the other i dont know, but have you tried swapping them around or use another pair of batteries….ohhh theres another little thing….i said “pair”….batteries get worn, and so i try to keep the wear level the same on batteries that go together so i dont end up with a new and old cell in the same flashlight, this is asking for disaster if you do, cause the older will most likely run out faster than the new leading to dangerous voltage situations
look close at your flashlights….they kind resemble a pipe bomb….i wonder what would happen if a cell vents, can the pressure get so high the flashlight will fail to contain the pressure ? note that i dont know if the pressure can build that high, its not like the cells are made in super strong casings
pretty cool that you figured out that some of the flashlights now have low voltage cutoff = LVC all lipo ready rc models have this, and the fandy fire 3000 lumen (which is more like 2000 lumen) it has a cutoff too…in my rc gear i set the cutoff at minimum 3.3v and mostly at 3.5v between the two there only about 3-5% more runtime at the cost of shorter life of the battery pack
i charge my lipos often just topping them off…..but at the least i would stop instantly if the light switches to a low output mode or you notice its getting dimmer kinda fast….unless your in a “life/death” situation then of course sacrifice the lipo. when you notice the light just getting ever so slightly dimmer switch to a lower mode or strobe…the battery will last a lot longer
another cool feature of lipo is that the power drop as dramatically in cold conditions, and their self discharge is usually very low, as far as rechargeable batteries these batteries have a great shelflife
getting even an cheap charger of the kind with display like mine…these chargers can be had for as low as 30$ for a small model, they are much better chargers, and allows you to monitor how many MAH you put into the battery, that way you can pair up batteries of equal capacity, plus usually they can charge at a higher rate typically up to 5A BUT DO NOT CHARGE 18650 batteries at more than 1C which means if its a 2000mah battery 2A max….if its a 2800mah battery then 2.8A…and i suggest charging at ½C so a 2800 should be charged at 1.4A to last a bit longer and give the battery a fuller charge…also these chargers tops off the batteries better than
i love lipo….they enable me to have flashlights that are super small yet very powerful, as well have rc models that can outrun their nitro powered cousins freaking awesome..heed the warnings and obey the rules and they are generally safe….remember all your cellphones/laptops etc all run some form of lipo (usually with more safeguards then rc or flashlights but still) once in a while you hear of a dell/apple or other electronic blowing up…yeah shit happens….cars punktures, and planes crash….its life…and life is dangerous and will kill you at some point so make the best of it while you got it..buy some cool flashlights…
wonder if dildoes have switched to lipo…hehe
Update of my learning experiences with CREE XM-L Flashlight/Torchs and 18650 Li-ion Batteries for use as the poor man nite vision.
LITHIUM-ION BATTERIES:
When you heed their unique set of warnings you have a superior replacement to the worlds most popular battery the AA. Li-ion likes to be topped off, does not have the old nicad memory effect, and provides consistent strong current to power the latest technology of constant current devices. That translates to longer run times with consistent performance and thousands of dependable re-charges.
These babies aren’t the Rayovac flashlight and battery your grandfather gave you. Those were great technology back in the 1950s and great for reading a comic book under the covers at night. But, we learned the hard way that batteries go dead, leak, and eat up the insides of what was a great little flashlight.
Li-ion batteries are a leap ahead in technology, are environmentally friendly compared to any of the other rechargeable battery types BUT come with a different set of cautions and potential hazards. Observing proper polarity is a more serious concern making a difference of whether your house or vehicle become enveloped in a life threatening explosion and fire. Overcharging will also cause this serious hazard. Likewise Over Discharging will change the batteries chemistry and set you up for a fire and/or explosion when re-charging is attempted. If you beat the odds in one of these situations you are courting disaster.
If you are still reading this, I am about to throw caution to the wind…As the world is considered over populated it seems we are allowed to play with potentially more dangerous new technology with very little warning and no formal training. No classes required, no age limit and no permit needed to buy. We call it freedom but maybe they figure we experimenters are dangerous anyway. We might just learn to survive with our airguns.
So let’s try to understand why they sell non protected Li-ion batteries with a high power flashlight/torch that could, if abused, over heat, explode, and envelope our homes in a rapid spreading fire.
So far the 5 Torchs I have work similar in all having memory mode switches for 5 modes. I have yet to tame my 1600 lm 2 battery Torchs. More on that later. I bought several package deals on eBay and got an inexpensive charger and non-protected Li-ion batteries with several slightly different 1000, 1300, and 1600 lumen Torchs. I’m a sucker for a bargain but got worried after re-reading the warnings by Cygnus and others and did not receive any kind of user instructions with these products from Hong Kong. None of the equipment bought direct came with instructions and to top that, they don’t even list some safety features. That’s unAmerican to not use safety features to promote a sale! Or, is it to err on the side of limiting liability?
I read where the cheaper Li-ion battery chargers had problems a couple years ago. It appears the LED indicator lights were nor working properly and the units were causing dangerous overcharging conditions. The inexpensive charger usually included in package deals was apparently the problem one. But, they have done something to make them more reliable. Apparently they don’t want to have to explain if they don’t work exactly as originally designed. The LED in one of mine actually had 3 indicator conditions and colors but not consistently. The others just go from Red=Charging to Green=Trickle Charging. The other charger went on to Orange=?Full Charge/Trickle Charge Off (I think, but it happened only a couple of times). So, an inexpensive (under $5) 600 mAh rated charger, they do nicely if they don’t eventually screw up. It’s best not to leave them on and unattended. I check them every hour or two to make sure they or the batteries aren’t getting hot. A couple of hours with the Green Trickle Charge light on and they are plenty charged enough. Cygnus said they will last longer if charged short of 4.2V.
My first 5 Cree XM-L Torchs have several different model numbers but the switch operates the same with a hard click for On/Off and a short push to change modes. They also all have mode memory turning back on in the last used mode.
The single battery Torchs I got so far have additional undocumented ?Safety? Features. I “?” Safety because they are undocumented and who knows how reliable? Anyway, I ran 1000 lm and 1300 lm Torchs from full Non PCB batteries in High Power Mode continuously and found that at some point the Torchs would Automatically Switch down to LOW Power Mode and continue running for many hours. Then, a strange new event occurred, the Torchs Automatically Switched to STROBE MODE for a period of a minute to as long as 10 minutes as I left them on. Again they would switch back to LOW Power Mode. Eventually they Automatically Shut OFF.
This is not to say your Cree XM-L Torch will do the same. But it might be worth sacrificing 1 cheaper battery to find out. Of course you should check periodically to make sure you don’t have a really hot battery that might explode or start a fire. Don’t test with the torch on or near flamable material or items.
I believe that when my torch first switched to LOW Power it would have been a good time to replace the battery. For emergency minimal lighting it probably would be OK to continue running on LOW Power until it Automatically switched the STROBE on, and then remove it for a re-charge. The voltage where the Auto switching took place varied from one model torch to another but you’ve got to know that it was a design feature to indicate it is time to switch batteries.
So, SOME CREE XM-L Torchs may have built in Auto Mode Switching to indicate a safe time to change out a NON PROTECTED Li-ion Battery.
With PROTECTED, PCB Li-ion Batteries I DID NOT GET THE SAME RESULTS!!! GO FIGURE! Does the Battery PCB protection circuit interfere with some flashlight/Torchs built in voltage sensor?
Damn undocumented features!!!
It is not right to sell this stuff without a user manual. But I have 5 more enroute…if I find additional “Easter Eggs” I’ll let you know.
Help, can anyone tell me how to get 2 x 18650 Li-ion batteries to discharge at the same rate? In my 1600 lm 2 cell Torchs neither PCB or Non Protected will discharge equally. One always gets hotter whether in the front or rear position. Would a balance charger help?
this is my setup for testing, an icharger 306b hooked up to pc running logview, capable a discharging up to 80W and charging up to 1000w…has a temp prope, digital readout so pretty perfect for this
Sure hope that fixes my problem
yeah sometimes its better to just purchase the complete kit, instead of a new bulb….if your handy with a soldering iron you can typically just replace the led it self instead of led+driver+reflector
CYG, I posted in the other thread too. As long as we don’t post the same info twice we aren’t guilty of spamming ourselves.
Harry, I hope you get that torch lite up soon. How many modes does it have?
My Ultrafire XM-L 501B took a crap, I have tested everything and I think the bulb is bad. so I just bought a replacement… The bulb costs half as much as I paid for the light with charger and 2 batteries 😯
Sure hope that fixes my problem
poop posted the graphs in the other thread http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20316&start=40
can an admin move my 3 posts in the other thread ?
Cyg,
You’re the man with the right equipment.
All I found out so far is that some Torchs using the Cree xm-l led have good protection features. I’ll have to try the TENERGY pcb protected batterie in the same Torchs to compare with the unprotected UltraFire batteries.
I’ll be watching for your 1A test results.
just ran the tenergy through a discharge test…at 3A constant it gave me 2050mah or in other words lasted 41 minutes
to be fair, i gave it a quick charge before i the discharge…so it might not have been completely full, and i also dont charge to 4.2 but 4.19 (suposedly adds longivity, but that would give it another 100-150mah easy, and if i took it down to 2.75 the last mah would probably be there
so in other words…2.6ah seems to hold true….with a slower discharge their capacity goes up too…..i tried slow discharging a 5000mah lipo once and got 6300mah out of it…sooo more to come will try a 1A discharge
AGAIN LIPO bateries without pcb/protection ARE DANGEROUS IN FLASHLIGHTS, under or overvoltage leads to chemical reactions that destroy the battery and can cause exlosion/fire you name it, att to that a container like a flashlight the resembles a pipe bomb and the pressures inside can get really high before they pop
theres a bunch of chinese scams going on, and batteries are no exception, i got a really good charger/discharger from my rc hobby and it can tell me resistance and how many mah it charged and discharged
i have 3 ultrafire batteries the grey ones that are 2600 mah, none of them have more than 2000 mah out of them with a 3A load….with a 1A load its better and gets around 2400, and with a 500mah load i finally got 2600
there was different temps depending on battery even though they where bought at the same time, same make and model. they are ok as they are cheap, but theres a better option, internal resistance in two batteries was 4 ohms and in the third it was 25 ohms 🙄 higher resistance = heat
TENERGY 2600mah lipo….light blue battery with a green band at the bottom, they have proven to be much more consistent and actually giving me 2450 mah at a 3A load and even a 2700 mah with a ½A load….they have pcb so they are protected, temps where consistent and stable luke warm, they are a bit more expensive, 1$ more or so…nothing critical, considering you just spent 30$+ on a flashlight 🙂
remember lipo’s like to be topped off frequently…unlike nimh or nicd batteries that are best if completely discharged and recharged, and they still get memmory effect, lipo suffer none of these drawbacks, but they like to be charged often so they dont run low, and its good to keep them topped off which will also prevent you from running the battery low
most pcp protects the battery from going below 2.7 or 2.8v which by the RC industry is a tad low here we stop at 3v, and with newer nano infused batteries 3.4v is considered empty. so just keep the lipo’s charged
thanks lurker for posting your findings…i have several ternergy and they are much more consistent and can deliver the power….i never really thought about testing batteries like you just did….im considering running all my batteries through a test just for the fun of it….now where did i put the temperature guage for the charger…and the long usb cable to hook charger up to pc…
anyhow thanks for your posting
Several batteries paired, charged equal, and cooled and still no matched pair.
By pairing the best voltage holding batteries I did get nearly 50 minutes of high power but one battery dipped to 2.68V after 50 minutes. The better of this pair only went down to 3.84V.
At 30 minutes the head temperature leveled off at 131 degrees but at 50 minutes was 125. At 50 minutes the BAD battery measured 115 degrees with the other at 110.
Actual use could extend the usefulness considerably by using Medium or Low power, Strobe, or S O S.
I am waiting on magnets from DealExtreem to make contact pairing 2 Tenergy PCB Protected batteries that came without button tops, from a different source.
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When I changed my signature line to show the USED BURNED UP PIECE OF CRAP deal extreme sent to me as NEW, my profile page locked me out because somehow it still had an old email aft in it. Oh well, Tony fixed it.
I felt bad that I couldn’t’ remove the image when DX finally gave me an RMA # but…then I received another 2nd Hand Charger from another order from DX. It was slopily re-packed. It didn’t have any holes burned in it so I tested it. It worked after a fashion however the red charge lights continuously blink off. No f’n instructions to explain how it is supposed to work but all the others say if they blink it indicates the battery is in backwards.
DX has a lot of things I can’t find elsewhere but I sure as hell will not give them another order.
Not exactly giving equal time to another Chinese junk dealer, I’ve gotten shortest on 3 1300 lm zoom torches by Cyber888. they omited sendind the extra 3AAA Battery holders . so far they still owe me two of them. can you imagine them sendind only one at a time VIA airmail all the way around the world?
Ho, Ho, Ho, be prepared to fight for your shit from China. it’s that time of year to stand up to the a’holes of the world.