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Updated on November 17, 2011
hauntedmyst
Participant
November 17, 2011 at 5:07 pm
Q:

Hoot, question for ya! Barrel length

In another thread, you said,

quote :

If you want max efficiency from a Talon SS, without using a lot of air to get to the fps/fpe you desire, then you need a longer barrel…period.

A short barrel can shoot as straight as a 24″ barrel, and for as long a distance, however that performance comes at a price and that price is sufficient air volume to produce the results you want.

Can you explain a little further? I’m confused in my noob ignorance. I always thought the longer the barrel, the more air it took to push the pellet. The result was greater accuracy and more power down range but at a loss of shot count/air efficiency. I read your statement to say the opposite.

Talon/Talon SS

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Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 21 total)

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pablouk
Participant
November 20, 2011 at 4:28 pm
quote WalkonKing:

Its awesome when Pab’s posts when sober :thumb:

pablouk
Participant
November 20, 2011 at 4:22 pm
quote kip5555:

Not 100% on this one, will a shroud have any effect on power of shots? I would think the pellet is already gone before the shroud could hold back any of the power. I don’t have a chrony to test this. Thought I would ask you all your thoughts. Thanks Kip. By the way I love the fat chick comparison. Nice!

No, no power loss with a shroud.

kip5555
Participant
November 20, 2011 at 3:41 pm

Not 100% on this one, will a shroud have any effect on power of shots? I would think the pellet is already gone before the shroud could hold back any of the power. I don’t have a chrony to test this. Thought I would ask you all your thoughts. Thanks Kip. By the way I love the fat chick comparison. Nice!

moneyshot
Participant
November 19, 2011 at 6:32 pm
quote synopsys:

With a muzzle sweep of 1.5″ per second (which is a crazy sweep rate) the deviation from straight at 100 yards for the given time is 0.3″. Or about 1/8 of an inch at 50 yards or just under 1/16″ at 30 yards.

I have a very, very accurate airgun and it will group 3/8″ all day long at 50 yards, so even for a very, very accurate airgun 1/8″ at 50 yards is within the mechanical capability of the rifle it’s not a factor. And that is for an extreme muzzle sweep rate.

With a 0.5″ per second sweep your looking at 1/8″ of difference at 100 yards. And I’d say a 0.5″ muzzle sweep is probably a good estimation of the average sweep for off hand shooting. There is no airgun on this planet capable of showing 1/16″ deviation of path at 50 yards…

In terms of airguns and their accuracy (a super great group is usually bigger then 1/2″ at 75 yards) so it’s not “marginal” for airguns it’s practically imperceptible.

The dynamic of the crown effect for a pb and an airgun is different simply because of the pressures involved. For an airgun the MAX pressure is 3000psi a pb is ten times that at the minimum. Although I will say a bad crown will effect the trajectory of the projectile more than a longer barrel and muzzle movement from air gun kick or the shooter flinching.

Many of these things are pb issues where the pressures and kick of the rifle are greater by magnitudes of tens to hundreds… 😉

ok, ok, ill throw the towel on this one…i havent any numbers to retort… 😳

benneeb0y
Participant
November 19, 2011 at 3:58 am
quote WalkonKing:

Its awesome when Pab’s posts when sober :thumb:

😆 😆 😆

synopsys
Participant
November 19, 2011 at 12:12 am

With a muzzle sweep of 1.5″ per second (which is a crazy sweep rate) the deviation from straight at 100 yards for the given time is 0.3″. Or about 1/8 of an inch at 50 yards or just under 1/16″ at 30 yards.

I have a very, very accurate airgun and it will group 3/8″ all day long at 50 yards, so even for a very, very accurate airgun 1/8″ at 50 yards is within the mechanical capability of the rifle it’s not a factor. And that is for an extreme muzzle sweep rate.

With a 0.5″ per second sweep your looking at 1/8″ of difference at 100 yards. And I’d say a 0.5″ muzzle sweep is probably a good estimation of the average sweep for off hand shooting. There is no airgun on this planet capable of showing 1/16″ deviation of path at 50 yards…

In terms of airguns and their accuracy (a super great group is usually bigger then 1/2″ at 75 yards) so it’s not “marginal” for airguns it’s practically imperceptible.

The dynamic of the crown effect for a pb and an airgun is different simply because of the pressures involved. For an airgun the MAX pressure is 3000psi a pb is ten times that at the minimum. Although I will say a bad crown will effect the trajectory of the projectile more than a longer barrel and muzzle movement from air gun kick or the shooter flinching.

Many of these things are pb issues where the pressures and kick of the rifle are greater by magnitudes of tens to hundreds… 😉

moneyshot
Participant
November 18, 2011 at 11:01 pm
quote synopsys:

quote moneyshot:

bear in mind also, that a short barrel is slightly more forgiving of shooter technique by marginally reducing lock time.

If the pellet gains say 200 more fps from a 12″ to 24″ barrel then if a pellet from a 12″ barrel is traveling 700fps on exit it would be 900fps on the 24″.

At just 700 fps, a relatively slow velocity for a pcp shot (this number doesn’t account for the fact that the pellet is actually speeding up from 12″ to 24″ in the barrel so the following number would actually be smaller by another 25% at least) it takes the pellet 0.001 seconds to travel 12″, a super fast reaction time for a human is just over 0.1 seconds.

So unless you can react one hundred times faster than the fastest reaction time that extra 12″ is irrelevant in terms of flinch induced barrel tip movement prior to the pellet exiting the 24″ barrel…

Even if you were moving the end of the barrel say 0.5″ per second (0.04 feet) in 0.001 seconds you would only move the tip of the barrel 0.0005″.

At 1.5″ per second of barrel movement you would move the end of the barrel 0.0015″. That is roughly 1/4 the thickness of a piece of paper.

Moving the barrel around at 1.5″ per second is a lot of movement even for off hand shooting.

syn…bear in mind i said marginally. some would swear that a short barrel will have a locktime advantage(i wouldnt mind a few actual numbers on this) as some will swear(and demonstrate) that the crown of a barrel as well as the exiting gases have zero effect on a projectiles path. i know that this has been conducted with a pope made barrel built especially for this experiment. think it was Mann, though im unsure. also bear in mind that minor barrel movement will change the path of a projectile exponentially over longer and longer distance…

also, a short barrel will have less length for imperfections in the barrelmaking process to show themselves…

synopsys
Participant
November 18, 2011 at 10:49 pm

I submit Mick Jagger and Steven Tyler as proof of that statement!!! 😯

kennc
Participant
November 18, 2011 at 10:27 pm

[quote=”Hoot”][quote=”KenNC”][b]There’s no such thing as rich and ugly![/b]

Thank you Uncle Hoot, It all make sense to me now :18:

hoot
Participant
November 18, 2011 at 10:06 pm
quote KenNC:

Sharing a little Jack Daniels with a Fat and Ugly girl as well as a Thin and Beautiful one before a movie or dinner usually got us both the same satisfying results without wasting a lot of money or air on either. This involved both short and long barrel with no penalty. Hoot, does this scenario fit in here somewhere or is there just no shortcuts on this one?

There is indeed a shortcut…..

I have the face of a bloodhound. Therefore, to artificially enhance my appearance, I need cash, a LOT of cash, to convince a nice looking women that I am worth her time.

If you are good looking, you have a serious advantage in the cost savings department. You’ll get to where I want to be a lot quicker and cheaper!

That being said…one must always remember the words of the great Greek philosopher, Apoplexy, who once muttered:

[b]There’s no such thing as rich and ugly![/b]

Kindest regards,

Humble ‘Ol Uncle H 😯 😯 T

kennc
Participant
November 18, 2011 at 9:10 pm

Sharing a little Jack Daniels with a Fat and Ugly girl as well as a Thin and Beautiful one before a movie or dinner usually got us both the same satisfying results without wasting a lot of money or air on either. This involved both short and long barrel with no penalty. Hoot, does this scenario fit in here somewhere or is there just no shortcuts on this one?

synopsys
Participant
November 18, 2011 at 9:01 pm
quote moneyshot:

bear in mind also, that a short barrel is slightly more forgiving of shooter technique by marginally reducing lock time.

If the pellet gains say 200 more fps from a 12″ to 24″ barrel then if a pellet from a 12″ barrel is traveling 700fps on exit it would be 900fps on the 24″.

At just 700 fps, a relatively slow velocity for a pcp shot (this number doesn’t account for the fact that the pellet is actually speeding up from 12″ to 24″ in the barrel so the following number would actually be smaller by another 25% at least) it takes the pellet 0.001 seconds to travel 12″, a super fast reaction time for a human is just over 0.1 seconds.

So unless you can react one hundred times faster than the fastest reaction time that extra 12″ is irrelevant in terms of flinch induced barrel tip movement prior to the pellet exiting the 24″ barrel…

Even if you were moving the end of the barrel say 0.5″ per second (0.04 feet) in 0.001 seconds you would only move the tip of the barrel 0.0005″.

At 1.5″ per second of barrel movement you would move the end of the barrel 0.0015″. That is roughly 1/4 the thickness of a piece of paper.

Moving the barrel around at 1.5″ per second is a lot of movement even for off hand shooting.

hoot
Participant
November 18, 2011 at 8:02 pm

Pab, stay on that seven step program!

Think of this issue as a “short barrel penalty”.

If you need, or want, a short barrel carbine with the same accuracy, feet per second, and foot pounds of energy, as a full sized rifle, you can have it. No problem what so ever.

However, a short barrel requires more air usage to achieve what its bigger cousin can do.

Short Barrel Penalty = less shots per tank. That’s the only drawback.

Another way of saying this is you want a date.

A fat, ugly, tall, bitch will go out with you, and gladly eat hot dogs a fast food restaurant, and will do almost anything you want, out of pure gratitude.

A beautiful, trim, lean, short woman can also provide the exact same thing as the tall fat bitch, BUT…..BUT…..you are going to pay, and pay dearly! Sit-down restaurant, steaks, wine, dessert, a live concert, afterwards drinks….lots of drinks, at a nice club.

At the end of the night, you will have obtained the exact same goal. But one cost a lot more to get there than the other. Tall Fat Bitch/Long barrel….Short, Hot Chick/Short barrel.

It can’t get any simplier than that.

Best regards, and without any hint of apologies to any fat, ugly bitches reading this…..I remain, sincerely and humbly…

Kindly ‘Ol Uncle H 😯 😯 T

hauntedmyst
Participant
November 18, 2011 at 6:08 pm

Thanks guys. I think its the launch concept thats throwing me off. I am assuming the blast (puff of air) is the factor and the longer barrel results in more friction, requiring more air but apparently that is wrong. It apparently provides more efficiency. So now to get a shorter barrel to shot the same distance at the same speed, it needs a bigger blast.

Thats for being patient with my remedial abilities!

walkonking
Participant
November 18, 2011 at 2:55 pm

Its awesome when Pab’s posts when sober :thumb:

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