220 bars shot string from .30 cal Matador short.
When I first received my .30 Matador, it was shooting at about 695 f/s. I kept adjusted my hst and the max I got was about 800 f/s. My gun now will not cock because I maxed out my hst.
I decided to tear down the gun and give it a lube job and an overall evaluation. I replaced 3 regulator housing O rings.
(2) of the 3mm x 25mm, and
(1) of the 3mm x 20mm.
Ed had the housing extended by adding a spacer to increase air volume.
Regulator was set at 160 bar.
I decided to increase regulator pressure to 170 bar and bumped the hst by about 1/8 of a turn from the original position ( I marked the original position).
Here is a string from 220 bar.
(1) 884.0
(2) 890.3
(3) 887.7
(4) 870.0
(5) 866.3
(6) 890.5 @ 201 bar
(7) 890.0
(8) 879.3
(9) 887.7
(10) 891.9
(11) 886.7 @ 182 bar
(12) 880.8
(13) 889.8
(14) 888.2
(15) 896.9
(16) 885.6 @ 168 bar
(17) 876.5
(18) 884.4
(19) 893.5
(20) 900.2
(21) 898.7 159 bar
(22) 885.8
(23) 859.0 @ 149 bar
(24) 846.0………….this shot sounded totally different than the rest, I think it is way off the regulator!!!
I know this is not the best string out of this gun, but I think give it time to break in and bring down the speed to about 865 with lighter hst, I can squeeze 2 more shoots out of the fill @ 220 bars and deviation also will be within 4-8 f/s.
I will retune with minor adjustment after a few thousand shots,
Johnp
All Replies
Based on Ed’s video and the avg FPS from my gun I am thinking my Standard 30 cal regulator is set at 150 bar rather than 160 bar maybe with the HST down a bit more since a have about 10 FPS less and a few more shots than Ed. šÆ
Another observation with the orings working so well on the bolt probe I am noticing that the hammer slap noise on my .25 Standard Matador is a bit louder than the .30 cal Standard Matador and there is no leak on the .25 or .30 at this point. I guess maybe the HST is down a bit more with the beefed up regulator on the .30???
Endo,
Great write-up that was exactly what I was looking for but couldn’t find searching the archives. šÆ I read that stuff all day long. š³
As Tedd said, it is likely that you were at the “back side” of the regulator —- you may have passed the plateau of HST curve.
Based on what I have learned from Tedd, I came up with a write-up on regulator/HST tuning at the end of the page.
http://www.talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=22808&start=20
Although it is on .22 standard, I think the principle is the same. Hopefully, this is useful.
You should be able to increase air efficiency when reg/HST is at the optimal setting.
I hope I have a chance to get a .30 Matador in the future.
Enjoy your tune.
Endo
My reg setter wasn’t tested on the .30 cal.
The reg tester is not for everyone, if your a perfectionist its great for setting the pressure in vary small increments’ 5-10b, you just cant do that by turning the reg adjustments screw less then a hair and assuming you have increases the reg pressure, also vary useful in getting your reg pressure setting prior to disassembly or reseal then its a pin point accuracy to go back to your original reg pressure prior without using a lot of air and man hours. also the tester is used to check the proper sealing when the piston move forward to stop the incoming air supply when the required reg pressure you wanted to maintain, if you have a slow leak your shot fps will differ when taking a shot every 15-20 sec when taking a shot string of 20 or so shots, now let wait 15min or an hour then take a shot you will notes its 25fps + faster——> then ask your self WTF. one of my test is a creep test, when the pressure stop at a given setting, I time it for 15 to 30 min if pressure didn’t move it pass, if pressure continue to rise within that time frame its a fail, have to resurface both sealing surface of the piston seat and body seat and replace internal oring then test for creep again till it pass. I use it as a trouble shooting tool the most and beyond. The Edgun regulator is a precision tool, and the performance of that tool has to be measured and verified by another precision instrument!
Here is a photo of that instrument with a vary accurate liquid fill brass gauge by WAKI. +-.1psi
Take a look at this proper use of the unregulated air in the whole air tube when the reg seat is open when off the reg. as you can see the bell curb of the unregulated air is maintaining the current speed there for you will get more shoot on or about the current speed, now if the bell curb of the unregulated air is way above the current speed you will get high fps then drop off, to lower the bell curb the reg pressure must be lowered & HST adjusted.
Ernest
JohnP,
As Tedd said, it is likely that you were at the “back side” of the regulator —- you may have passed the plateau of HST curve.
Based on what I have learned from Tedd, I came up with a write-up on regulator/HST tuning at the end of the page.
http://www.talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=22808&start=20
Although it is on .22 standard, I think the principle is the same. Hopefully, this is useful.
You should be able to increase air efficiency when reg/HST is at the optimal setting.
I hope I have a chance to get a .30 Matador in the future.
Enjoy your tune.
Endo
JohnP: I am still wondering just how the fuck that your reg pressure setting tool for a 22 and 25 cal Matador could ever work properly with the 30 cal reg that has a smaller front OD housing and a smaller O ring on the front end of the regulator. The air pressure would just leak past the first reg O ring and push against the second O ring.
I just donāt think that it will ever work on the 30 cal!
I could be wrong! It happens way more often that I care to admit!
I need help here! Would somebody help me? Please!
Your reg setting tool would be nice to have! I am old school and I donāt really need one. I have tuned enough Matadors that I think that I know how much to increase or decrease the reg to get the gun to shoot where I want it to shoot. With or without the tool, I would still have to put the reg back into the gun and see if the new reg setting worked for me.
Ernest, I am NOT hating on you!
JohnP: There was a few fps spike for your 19-21 shots. The last 3 shots shows me that the reg is still set slightly too high and that you need a little more HST after you turn the reg down slightly.
I donāt know why the Matadorās regulator will allow the speeds to increase as the pressure in the air tube drops. A regulator SHOULD give the same output pressure and speeds no mater what air pressure is left in the air tube; as long as the air tube pressure is higher than the regās set pressure.
It is just the nature of the Matadorās regulator and I have learned to live with it.
The reg and HST HAVE to be set in unison to get the best regulated shot string.
JohnP: if I was tuning your gun, I would turn the reg down just a slight bit more. I would then back off the HST at least a turn, I would go 2 turns. Then, with a full fill, shoot 1-2 shots, see where the speed is and then adjust the HST Ā¼ turn at a time.
You want to see the highest speeds that the reg and HST settings can provide. The reason that I say turn the HST down 1-2 turns is, if you donāt do that, you can be on what Ed calls the āback sideā of the regulator. You donāt want to be on the back side! Speeds will decrease with more HST and then will increase with more HST. It almost drove me crazy until Ed came to my rescue!
If my tuning takes more than 20 shots, I refill the air tube.
You/I/we want to come up with the lowest reg set pressure and a HST setting that works in unison.
If in your first 20 shots, you come up with a higher fps speed than you want, the reg needs turned down a little/lot depending on what the high fps is.
SORRY for the long post!
You guys could have done a search for Edgun regulator tuning info and have all of your questions answered a few times!
Every time that Tony get a new shipment of Edguns, the TAG lights up with people wanting tuning info.
I DONāT mind helping out with Edgun tuning info but: sometimes I feel like I have been caught up in some kind of funky āGroundhog Dayā loop! šÆ šÆ š
I understand and it is strange because according your string you should use lower reg. pressure… but you have problem you can not cock the gun due to HST is on maximum… š³ We judge only from your shot string when nr. 21 has still 898fps – 159bar. and theoretically 160bar should be enough for the gun. May be am I wrong…
Ok, I will try to set regulator pressure at 156 bar and match hst to shoot 880 f/s. I will report again this weekend,
Johnp
I do not understand, like I said, I received the gun shooting at 695f/s, I increased hst every 1/4 of a turn and took a shoot. At the maximum hst ( the gun sometimes will not cock), the gun shoots at about 800 f/s. I have remove the reg 3 times and confirmed the reg is set at 160 bar by the manufacturer. You mean to tell me to lower the reg pressure to 155 or 156 bar, the gun will shoot at 890 f/s with the correct hst?.. How is that logical?
If someone can confirm that their gun(.30 cal) is shooting at 890 f/s and reg. is set at 156 bar, then I will give it a try.
Unless the reg. tester sent by Ernest was not designed to test .30 cal regulator because there are two different sizes of O rings on the housing. I may have got the wrong reading. Regardless of the wrong tester, to increase speed of the pellet at any given hst adjustment, you MUST increase the pressure.
Of course I could be wrong, if someone would explain to me what is wrong, I like to hear from you,
Thanks,
JohnP
I agree with dman1114 & old goat !! When user hacampbell1360 wants speed the 880fps is better try opposite procedure lower regulation pressure (I would try 156-158 max) and with HST set the speed to 880fps.
I appreciate your input, Secoda had kinda asked and I was waiting to here also, but to be clear, is it generally accepted that reg should be set for FPS and hst set just tight enough to generally get all of the reg. that is set for to be available, in order to get the longest and flattest shot string ??? / best accuracy. This is kind of what I have been absorbing or is it a lot more complicated than that ??
No you hit it right on the head with that Rideā¦..
I appreciate your input, Secoda had kinda asked and I was waiting to here also, but to be clear, is it generally accepted that reg should be set for FPS and hst set just tight enough to generally get all of the reg. pressure that it is set for, in order to get the longest and flattest shot string ??? / best accuracy. This is kind of what I have been absorbing or is it a lot more complicated than that ??
The HST control the amount of force your hammer hits the valveā¦ and the amount of time its open so.. Its like a balancing act. using the regulator to adjust your FPS and fine tuning it with the HST
I may be wrong please feel to correct me those that have more wisdom/experience. I am in no way an expert ā¦. just lending the info i have in the rolodex
When he turned the regulator to 170 bar . adding more pressure to the chamber. the hammer needs more spring load to open the valve fully. which is why he increased the HST.
so when It got down to the 170 bar on the shot string took a dip for a few shots then it rose back up (pressure was lower HST was enough to open valve fully). I think that the valve wasn’t Fully opening. A combination of higher air pressure behind the valve/ needs more hammer tension to open the valve (at that pressure). THen it took a dive a 156/157 bar area. so it looks like right there is where it wants to sit (regulator pressure)
I do think thought he may get 23/24 shots at 885 with right reg/hst adjustment
so once it runs through a couple fills/ strings the regulator will settle and have a tighter spread, as Tedd explained.
This is just my speculation, and from what I’ve learned with playing with my HMX. ā¦. others may have a different take
These bullpups are the first regulated guns I have owned. I am a regulator virgin. š
also seeing that #22 was still right there you maybe able to set the reg around 155-6 and you should see 23-24 shots at 880-885 before a noticeable drop in velocity .
I agree with THE OLDGOATā¦.
I love these ” AIR GUN SCHOOL ” threads !!! I think I am getting a grip on this relationship but hearing the talk back and fourth is the best way for me and the way I learn. Old Brain learns slow and through repetition š
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I decided to tear down the gun and give it a lube job and an overall evaluation. I replaced 3 regulator housing O rings.
(2) of the 3mm x 25mm, and
(1) of the 3mm x 20mm.
Ed had the housing extended by adding a spacer to increase air volume.
Regulator was set at 160 bar.
I decided to increase regulator pressure to 170 bar and bumped the hst by about 1/8 of a turn from the original position ( I marked the original position).
Here is a string from 220 bar.
(1) 884.0
(2) 890.3
(3) 887.7
(4) 870.0
(5) 866.3
(6) 890.5 @ 201 bar
(7) 890.0
(8) 879.3
(9) 887.7
(10) 891.9
(11) 886.7 @ 182 bar
(12) 880.8
(13) 889.8
(14) 888.2
(15) 896.9
(16) 885.6 @ 168 bar
(17) 876.5
(18) 884.4
(19) 893.5
(20) 900.2
(21) 898.7 159 bar
(22) 885.8
(23) 859.0 @ 149 bar
(24) 846.0………….this shot sounded totally different than the rest, I think it is way off the regulator!!!
I know this is not the best string out of this gun, but I think give it time to break in and bring down the speed to about 865 with lighter hst, I can squeeze 2 more shoots out of the fill @ 220 bars and deviation also will be within 4-8 f/s.
I will retune with minor adjustment after a few thousand shots,
Johnp
Here is mine for comparison, with the same gun.
Here is my first string from my .30 Std. for comparison. I haven’t compared them yet but thought it would provide either likeness or contrast once we can look them over side by side. Also I was probably poorly estimating that #26 bar reading since I shot to #28 and it was 115 bar when I finished. They drop like a rock when they fall off the reg. don’t they. My gun has about 800 rds. thru. it. I am going to be filling to 230 bar and test at 240 as well while watching air consumption and reg. behavier. I really want 27-28 shots, 25 clean and 2-3 sighters if I can figure it out. i tlike shooting ARA 25 bull competition targets with a clean bull for each shot for practice.
