moderators=shrouds=silencers=trouble?
Please don’t kill me for posting this, but it seems pretty important.
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This came from Dr Dan Beeman’s site. He’s the ex-owner of Beeman air rifles. See this url for the whole rant.
http://www.beemans.net/silencers_on_airguns.htm
The basic issue seems to be that possession of a firearms silencer is illegal, that BATF have defined a silencer capable of reducing the sound of a firearm by 1 dB for 1 shot as a FIREARM, so any device that can reduce a firearm’s report is itself a firearm. Note that this is a legal definition in law, not a common usage or Webster’s definition. And, it doesn’t matter if the gun it was on would have to be destroyed in order to turn it into an actual firearms silencer.
The device — silencer, moderator, shroud, etc— whatever you call it doesn’t matter. If it reduces a firearm report by 1 dB once, it’s a silencer. The device in this case had fabric “guts” that were destroyed by the 22 rifle it was tested on.
Here is the case reported by Dr Beeman.
“SUNDAY, JULY 16, 2006
He’s going to jail!
by Tom Gaylord
Michael A. Crooker was found guilty on Wednesday, July 15, 2006 of illegally manufacturing a silencer. He faces a mandatory sentence of 15 years. (Latest flash, July 2007, review of the case, instead of throwing it out, may increase penalties up to 22 years!!).
Crooker made a silencer for a Korean Big Bore 909, a .45 caliber air rifle. In 2004 he sold the rifle and silencer to another party and he shipped it through the U.S. Postal Service, where it was intercepted.
When ATF tested the silencer on a firearm, it silenced the report. That is the legal definition of a silencer. Slam dunk.
Making a silencer is a violation of several counts of the same law. Because a silencer is considered to be a firearm by federal law, the maker has just made a firearm without a license to manufacture – count one. Firearms that are sold are required to have serial numbers, and this one didn’t – count two. And possession of an unregistered silencer is also a crime – count three.
The jury did ask for additional clarification on what constitutes a silencer, but the judge was unable to give them anything beyond the law. …
For 12 years I have maintained that silencers and airguns do not mix. People who play with the law open themselves to prosecution. Even if you win your case, the experience will not be pleasant. Now that BATF has a win under their belts, I expect them to prosecute other silencer violations more vigorously.
This was a jury trial. ”
It is no defense that “everybody” does it, just like speeding in a car. That guns, including the Talon SS are made with silencers and sold openly is also no defense according to Dr Beeman.
A felony conviction with 12 years minimum and a lifetime inability to vote or own a firearm and having to put the conviction on job applications sounds extreme and no fun. In view of all this, would it make sense to get rid of this forum section and dispose of all our silencers/shrouds/moderators?
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This is very important to this discussion…
Crooker, 51, formerly of Agawam, had been charged with being a previously convicted felon “causing a firearm to travel in interstate commerce.”
Discussion here-> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1665337/posts
For a felon anything having to do with or possibly being used with a firearm is another felony, for a felon, getting stopped for a traffic ticket is instant search, as a felon you no longer have any rights provided to the average law abiding citizen…
Did it mention that this is too long for best accuracy….
Also, any thing that can be adapted to a firearm and make it 1db quieter is considered a silencer…
Still wondering how AirSofters get away with mock suppressors that would readily fit onto the gun they are designed to silence…
If you want to have one without worries, you can go through the proper procedure, pay for a $200 “tax stamp” and after a couple of months it will come in the mail, and you’re good to go. As long as you’ve had no legal entanglements, it’s not a problem. I downloaded the form, filled it out, took it first to my county sheriff to do his part, mailed it with a money order to the feds, and that was that. It allows me to own one silencer which I just put on whatever rifle needs it at the time. The $200 is a one time fee and much cheaper than a fine and loss of a rifle. I figure better safe than sorry.
The thing I haven’t seen mentioned here is when your in court, it really comes down to what the Gov. can convince a jury (who most likely will know little to nothing about firearms OR airguns) to believe. Most of the time, (like politics) it comes down to who has more money to hire better lawyers. You or the Gov.?
Gamo, Theoben, Air Arms etc. are all European companies and therefore make rifles with built-in and removable silencers. There is no legislation covering silencers in England, although you can no longer buy them by mail order. In fact, the use of silencers on air rifles is encouraged as it makes hunting easier and causes less noise nuisance to neighbours of back-yard shooters.
But we are stuck with a crappy 12 foot-pound power limit. Given the choice I’d rather have unlimited muzzle energy than a quiet rifle.
what i dont get is how, gamo gets away with their new rifles that clearly a moderator on the barrel….and dont tell me its glued on there wont ever come off…apply heat to most glues and it lets go…even nasa glue has trouple holding on with heat
PAG sells Theobens, with LDC on the m saying they are permanently mounted…which is bull as it is also just a set screw and glue…
AOA sells BSA with moderators on them…
heck even the legal rapid that comes with a muzzle weight is actually a silencer…according to the law…as it does in fact lower noise some…
a water bottle and some gaffa tape is all thats needed…at some point you could even buy an adaptor for your barrel so screwing in a Ā½L bottle was very easy.
Like I said, I don’t want to become a test case. But again, they were looking for a reason to bust this guy. Had a friend get arrested one time, he had a tendency to shoot his mouth off, and I’m sure he pissed off the cop that pulled him over. The cop frisked him, and found MY belt knife on him. It was longer than the legal 3 1/2″ or whatever it was, he got to spend the night in jail, and I lost a very nice Gerber Mk. II. Bottom line is, if they want you, they’ll figure out a way. So a low profile has always struck me as a good policy, and whenever I have dealings with the Law, it’s always yes sir, no sir. Later.
Dave
Dave
Dave – He shipped an “LDC” with an Airgun – He got jailed so you might want to rethink your theory.
You’re all missing the loop hole that takes our LDC’s, mods, shrouds, etc. out of the equation, and that’s the use of the term “firearm” in the statute. The definition of firearm is very specific, and it doesn’t include air guns. And if that isn’t enough, the Feds have long mandated that air guns are not and can not be classified as firearms. That said, I don’t want to be the one to test it in court :-)! But it does explain why companies like Air Arms and Gamo can market a rifle with built in silencer and not be breaking the law. And by extension, it makes the things we do to quiet down our non-firearms at least arguably legal. Of course, I’m no lawyer, but that’s my take on the whole issue. Later.
Dave
“Destructive devices” are defined as
“(4) The term ādestructive deviceā meansā
(A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gasā
(i) bomb,
(ii) grenade,
(iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces,
(iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce,
(v) mine, or
(vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses;
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and
(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.
The term ādestructive deviceā shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes.
bombs, grenades, and etc. ”
So, pencils are out. They seem to mean serious devices with explosive capability. Here’s the link.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000921—-000-.html
It means they can classify anything they want to in court if they want you in jail.
I don’t get that. I mean a sharp pencil is destructive to paper in the sense it can poke holes through it. Does that make IT a firearm? š
Thats the scary part.
Crooker (unfortunate name, eh?) in the case above, was indeed a convicted felon, apparently for having an unregistered machine gun. Here’s the reference I found.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/crooker_v_batf.txt
Apparently BATF had been after him for a long time, since that was 1986 and he’d already been in jail for a while.
Here’s the relevant definition of a silencer from US Code
18 USC Section 921
Sec. 921. Definitions
(3) The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter
gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to
expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or
receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm
silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include
an antique firearm.
24) The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any
device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a
portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or
redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a
firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for
use in such assembly or fabrication.
It doesn’t give me warm fuzzies as intent may be hard to prove with a hostile court and “intention” only applies to unassembled silencer parts. A silencer can be “any device for…diminishing the report of a portable firearm…”. Yuck, pretty ambiguous. A straight-through glass pack car muffler would apparently qualify as a “firearms silencer” or even piece of waterpipe that could be slipped over the barrel. Dr Beeman cites a case where a potato stuck over the end of a pistol barrel being used in a robbery was a violation.
Long barrels can apparently greatly quiet a report.
“Finnish Army used some decades ago .22 rimfire rifles, exclusively chambered either for LR or Short cartridges, with barrel length almost amazing, 825 millimeters (32 Ā½ inches!) When loaded with standard velocity.22 LR Vostok cartridges or Lapua Championships (nominal muzzle velocity ca. 340 m/s), the muzzle blast was as noisy as that of SHERIDAN’s compressed-air rifle, pressurized with five or six pump piston strokes. Bullet’s flight noise was always absent.”
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html
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I think it really comes down to intent. If they wanted to they could go after them or if they found a guy trying it on a gun they would nail him.