Lathes/mills
What affordable makes are considered ok and which should be avoided like the plague? Are combos ok or better off with separate machines?
Usage would be general gunsmithing and hobbying so shouldn’t need anything larger than 30″. Pretty much just something to learn on, but wouldn’t want to have to buy twice if you know what I mean.
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Viewing 11 replies - 1 through 11 (of 11 total)
For non American “NEW” machines, the JET mills and lathes are fairly good. I used to dell Yuasa lathes years ago, and they were fine. They were Japanese. The Taiwan made machines were easy to find a couple of years ago. They were much better than the run of the mill (LOL) typical Chinese machines.
For cheaper Machines there are Chinese machines made in ISO certified factories available. They are Much higher quality than the standard Chinese machines. In some cased, they are made in the same factories as the low quality Harbor Freight type machines, but there is much more to it than the Paint. Like the plastic gears that love to break in the middle of a project. The run out is much better on the ISO certified machines. Like night and day different!
The castings are much more closely inspected. They are seasoned, (which many of the cheaper unites are not), and the tolerances are much tighter.)
Grizzly .COM is a good place to fine the better Chinese made machines. And with a Good Warranty!
I broke down and bought one of their 8×26 knee mills and am almost shocked at the quality. It is Much better than expected.
There is a lot written about this on the yahoo groups 6×26 milling machines
Mike
Thanks guys for the info and links.
I’ll keep my eyes open for an American 13×40 or similar. I hope to be in it for the long run and make some money with it. A mini-mill will come later. It would be nice to set them up CNC but probably won’t happen. Would like to get experience manually first.
If a few guys can slide it onto a Tommy lift and into an 8 ft bed I can get it moved. Like Mark, about 600 lbs may be the limit.
I don’t have a problem locating reading materials. I most often prefer to jump in feet first. Too much reading may intimidate me and I’ll never get it done! 8)
Dont buy more machine than you can move.
I got a basement, and the heaviest machine I can move in is 600 pounds.
Had to disasseble the lathe (craftsman 12X36), the Mill/Drill, and the surface grinder. All are about 600 pounds each.
Mark
This is a good read if you’re new to running a lathe:
http://www.americanmachinetools.com/how_to_use_a_lathe.htm
I just hired a flatbed and forklift to move mine in.
Stay away from the combo machines.
What you will be most happy with depends on how long you intend to do it and how much you intend to do with it. If you know you will be in for the long haul, spend as much money as you can to buy the highest quality machine you can afford. Machinist is correct, old american manual machines are going for pennies on the dollar and you can now buy a very, very good machine that cost more than $50k new in the 50’s, today for $1000 or so. But these are, without exception, manual machines. The reason they are going so cheap is because everyone wants to go to CNC because it is cheaper to pay one programmer to run 10 machines than hire 10 old grumpy machinists to run the same number of manual machines. CNC is also much faster, more consistent, wastes less material, and don’t give a shit if you don’t have enough coffee in the breakroom. I run manual machines myself and am doing my best to learn to be grumpy. Voltar is my idol.
Any old american iron is good but stick with known names; Hardinge, Southbend, Cincinatti, Logan, Atlas to name a few. Even in american lathes there are ‘tiers’ or rough classes. Hardinge is one of the better and in the same class with Monarch, Standard-Modern, some Cincinattis. Southbend is just a touch less accurate and in the same rough class with Atlas. Generally speaking, of course. I learned on a Southbend and they can be very, very accurate as long as you live within their limitations. Older machines are easier to predict because their castings have seasoned with the years and won’t change much from when you look at them. Be sure to set them up properly with a level. All lathes require periodic calibration and you can build your own calibration tools. I would sacrifice on name slightly in order to gain a more complete machine. Not all come with a chuck, for instance, and you will need at least 2 chucks at a minimum; a 3 jaw and 4 jaw; follow rest is optional, steady rest, an absolute necessity, toolpost(need), tailstock(need), taper attachment (opt). YOu can get by with a milling attachment for the lathe and avoid buying a mill if you will only do very small projects. If you need a mill, vertical mills are not in the same category as old manual lathes. Although there are cnc mills, most mills today are still running manual ops, so prices have not fallen nearly as much as with manual lathes. Good news is, the chinese cheapie mills are pretty good quality, buy whatever you can afford as long as it does not have a round vertical column. The mini mills are pretty good, Sherline, Taig; but of course you cannot do large projects on them and you will have to take light repetitive cuts rather a single heavy cut as these machines are not stiff enough. But that’s just extra time in the process.
If you have never run a lathe before I highly recommend the old Atlas Lathe Manual as a primer. There was some guy on the southbend forum on yahoo groups who was selling reprints for $10 or $20, if you cannot find it I can just xerox a copy of mine for you at work. But it’s not a necessity, I just turned the thing on and learned by doing. It was nice to read the manual years later, and it pointed out a couple things that I didn’t figure out right away like use of the crossfeed stop for threading. And use of the compound for threading (I had been using only the crossfeed). There are probably online resources, I have not checked as this is not of interest to me; but there are online resources of everything these days.
Look in your area, and be patient. The right machine will come along eventually. It is a strict matter of chance, of course; but in all areas there are dedicated machinists who upgrade to something else and will surrender a good old used machine for a fair price. I started out my search by just visiting the largest and oldest machine shops and asking around to see if anyone knew of someone selling a good used machine. Stay away from the 20×80 or 16x xxx sizes, these are far too large unless you intend to machine propeller shafts for aircraft carriers. The larger machines tend to be less accurate for fine work. You want something between 9×20 to 13×40 range. Gunsmithing, due to the length of the barrels, usually requires a 13×40. In fact, when i asked around I found several 20×80 machines whose owners offered to GIVE them to me for free, just for hauling them out. You will find that the 13×40 is the most popular size, and therefore commands the highest prices. Most people view the Monarch 10EE as the best manual machine in that size these days. But in your shoes I would buy any southbend I could find. I gave a few away a couple years back, a friend in a tradeschool had a half dozen that he was replacing at a community college and asked me to find good homes for them. They went like hotcakes, of course, and had minimal tooling (the tooling will run you MORE than the cost of the lathe, so budget accordingly; but tooling can be acquired over time as you incur the need for specific abilities). Join the southbend users group on yahoo and put out a general inquiry for anyone in your area selling a good used machine. Check the ways to be sure they are straight. If they are under power when you inspect bring a 1″ mild steel rod with you and ask them to cut one end near the headstock, then near the end at the tailstock, see if it cuts tapers or is straight. Bring an indicator with you and check headstock runout. Replacing the head bearings will cost more than any manual machine out there. Check condition of leade screw, bright and shiny with no swarf? shake the crossfeed, carriage, and compound to see if you can get them to move at all. These can generally be adjusted, so not a big deal; but if the leade is damaged (that long acme threaded rod that goes right through the carriage saddle) you are stuffed. If the main headstock bearings are loose you are stuffed. If the ways are not straight you are stuffed. If you find a toolpost grinder buy it and send it to me, I need one.
aloha,
walt
I’ve had pretty good luck with my Birmingham Chinese 18″ x 40″ lathe here at work. I had a pretty tight budget to work with when starting this shop up and the only new lathe we could afford that had the swing and threading ranges we needed were Chinese. My boss didn’t want to bother with a used one as we wanted to get started with production right away and couldn’t take a chance on having to fix a used one (there were no used available locally).
I’ve used this thing daily for 3+ years now for jobs more abusive than gunsmithing and I’ve only had a problem with the wiring on the drum switch coming loose and causing a short. Replaced the fuse, fixed the wire and it was back up & running. The machine is still relatively new but I don’t see any excessive wear or reason to believe it won’t be running for years to come. Be prepared to spend extra time finding parts though, I had to source the fuses online as they are an oddball metric size.
If you can find a used American machine that you can see under power, or have the ability to fix if there is something wrong I would definitely go that route; parts are available everywhere and it’s easy to find feedback on any machine. Otherwise the Birmingham’s seem to be pretty decent for the money. Buy the biggest, heaviest lathe you can afford/move and you’ll appreciate the extra size and rigidity when you need it for something unexpected.
Whatever you get make sure you are ready to move it.
Some guys take the advice on getting big machines and then realize they have no way to move it.
Its probably the best time to buy a machine tool there ever has been..
Buy a older model AMERICAN made mill and lathe..they are ridgid, will last a life time and you can buy parts for them if needed…I would look on ebay..you can get them now for a steal..I have a Cinncinatti 15 inch lathe that was made in the 50’s and it still runs like a charm!
I have had good luck with my 9×20 chinese lathe. From what I read, all of the 9×20’s are made by the same place in china, and just sprayed with different color. I will post a couple web sites that help me with some upgades. I bought mine at harbor freight with a 20% off coupon (best deal with 2 year replacement warrenty).
As far as mills, I do not have on yet. I plan on buying the chinese saig x3.
I looked into the 3 n 1 and combo units. they are nice if you do not have room for two seperate units, but will be limited on function. they also take alot of time between setups, going back and forth between lathe and mill setup.
Hey Guy!
Well the Combo machines are a pita, and not very ridgid. What kind of money are you looking to spend?
Mike
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i have three lathes.
my oldest is a craftsman made in the 1930’s it’s a 5×12 (or near that) i purchased it in 1967 it still works well but i’ve lost/broken parts for it and they’re getting hard to find…it was made by atlas. i’m missing the operators manual for threading gear set up. i foolishly “loaned” the lathe to a friend while i was going thru a divorvce and wanted to get it out of the house
the mini lathe i have from harbor freight is, shall we say, marginal…i use it for small finishing or touch up stuff.
and i have a ‘combination’ (lathe/mill/drill press) 12×24 (?) machine from harbor freight that’s fairly decent. it falls into the “be ready to move it” catagory, too…six-hundred pounds.
i find the chinese machines somewhat ‘crude’ in comparison to some of the american machines i’ve worked on but they do function ok for the biggest part. i’d prefer to have a nice jet, logan, cincinatti or atlas but at this point in life, i’ll keep what i have…they’re all PAID FOR and they’ll do anything i care to do with them…