ATF Website – Clear Definition of Airgun Silencers
This topic has been beaten to death before but I felt the following text from the ATF website contradicts the common understanding that we’ve all arrived at with regard to third party (detachable) shrouds/frame extenders. i.e. they require modification from an airgun fitting to work on a firearm; therefore they are legal until modified.
To save on time and frustration, please comment constructively, and only on the ATF text below. If you find a further clarification please provide your source with a link. See further down for an ATF ruling on Paintball silencers
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#paintball-airgun-suppressers
The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
Numerous paintball and airgun silencers tested by ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch have been determined to be, by nature of their design and function, firearm silencers. Because silencers are NFA weapons, an individual wishing to manufacture or transfer such a silencer must receive prior approval from ATF and pay the required tax. See also “What are the required transfer procedures for an individual who is not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer of NFA firearms?” and “How does an individual obtain authorization to make an NFA firearm?” for application details.
If you have any further questions as to the classification of a paintball or airgun silencer, please send a written request to ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch.
[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(24), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a), 27 CFR 479.11]
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well its not going to eliminate the potential issue but it highly increases the likelihood that the USDA will decline prosecution particularly if they figure you are on top of the current law and are determined to aggressively fight back.
after all then ATFE would need to explain why the Crosman moderator is acceptable yet yours is a potential violation
something not able to pass the smell test
I think that’s the best advice to avoid unwarranted cost and hassle.
Federal is a different system than State as each District can create their own judicial interpetations.
its when you get two conflicting interpetations in different Districts that you can advance the matter to the Supreme Court in DC who may or may not take the matter up
usually when you have conflicts between the Districts they have little choice tho…
As far as the Feds not attempting prosecution elsewhere, you give the local ATFE and USDAs too much credit for being on top of out of District developments and even if they are its a rare citizen that will fight these charges all the way through the swamp to the Supremes particularly after Congress limited post Conviction appeals
its a damn lengthy process, consider how long its been since the defendant in this case was sentenced…
Anyways it IS a VERY positive thing just don’t count on it doing much to curb ATFE muchless the USDA from sniffing your ass and taking a big chunk out of it.
Best thing one can do is to print out this ruling to have on hand to present ATFE and DOJ with if shit comes down making it very clear you will fight any prosecution to the steps of SCOTUS
USDAs do not look to fuck with losing cases
still maintain permenent install is the only way to go as well
Soooo…. this ruling is likely to have only a limited benefit to the rest of the country? I suppose since one court has overturned then there’s a strong case that the Feds won’t try and pursue something similar for fear of losing again?
“Intent” has always been the key issue guys…
what is to me “profoundly disturbing” tho is the closing remarks where the Court attempts to not only excuse the prosecution of Crocker but goes so far as to chide him over his “interest” in high power AGs as being “close to the edge of the law” given his previous felony conviction.
AGs are not close to firearms in any way, shape or form under the federal law
Then again this is coming from the District of Massachusetts
Be aware that this ruling only will be of benifit in that district
in order for it to have national standing DOJ must appeal to SCOTUS and lose which they likely would so I lay odds in this case there will be no appeal made thus preserving the staus quo through out the rest of the districts.
they do it all the time
The Crooker case on leagal.com was interesting. Seems intent, and the word “for” are quite important.
I wonder if stamping/engraving “For Airgun Use Only” would help?
Also, the simple fact that it was sent with an airgun made a difference. I wonder if simply having the airgun barrel in the box, as Crooker did, shows enough intent. I like the idea of the barrel exchange idea, but if the barrel is in the box with the silencer, intent is proven….Just maybe?
Regards,
Jim
This was posted on another thread… Crooker just had his case overturned….
http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/getopn.pl?OPINION=07-1964P.01A
The fact that it is Kind of muffled was the biggest factor though.
Going thru the BATFE paperwork and hoops for a “legal” can is just not for me, and opening up my house to 24/7 inspection and inventory is not legal IMHO but I don’t have the $$ to get the lawyers to defend me when I complain about the knock knock somewhere in the future when the NFA laws are changed. Remember that the NFA laws we have today covering mufflers and such where passed during our first economic depression….
I have worked in the real gun industry and learned a few things;
1. You need to do something that gets attention first before the feds get involved in your business. Like own a gun-store, sell lots of real stuff, make ammo for sale, talk too much about “odd stuff” to too many people, be careless in your sporting ventures, hang with shaddy people, tell everyone what you do or plan to do that isn’t politically correct. Don’t pass up a good thing, but shutup about it!
With that said, whatever you do to your Talon SS, it is much safer to keep it looking stock, custom is great but making it look suppressed versus “more accurate” is not very good. Then if you own real stuff, don’t have a single part of you SS that will work on any of your real ones. Custom baffle stacks is a total no-no if they could possibly work in something else that burns powder. Keep things simple and “off the shelf” from ACE or Home Depot. We are talking cool air and pellets so you really don’t need that much work. Aluminum window screen and electrical tape, pvc spacers will work very well. Creating air and sound wave turbulance is the key. And remember that the SS and all the Airforce line should be treated like a firearm due to the similar power and range. If you must break out the lathe and make something awesome, keep it to yourself, and don’t sell it, EVER! Never sell a modified Talon SS unless you really trust the buyer. They find a way to use the Talon’s mods on their powder burner, get in trouble, say you built it…..They get in trouble with it, and you are likely dragged in to their mess. It’s not smart to temple the system. If you think you are on thin ground, you likely are. And “I didn’t know” has already been used. Doesn’t work either. IMHO of course.
If you get into trouble after reading this then, you wanted to get into
trouble….
I just bought Talon SS in 22. The only reason I picked it was the combination of switch barrels 177/22, the shroud, and the PCP freedom and efficiency. Simply, a perfect urban squirrel terminator.
The fact that it is Kind of muffled was the biggest factor though.
Going thru the BATFE paperwork and hoops for a “legal” can is just not for me, and opening up my house to 24/7 inspection and inventory is not legal IMHO but I don’t have the $$ to get the lawyers to defend me when I complain about the knock knock somewhere in the future when the NFA laws are changed. Remember that the NFA laws we have today covering mufflers and such where passed during our first economic depression….
I have worked in the real gun industry and learned a few things;
1. You need to do something that gets attention first before the feds get involved in your business. Like own a gun-store, sell lots of real stuff, make ammo for sale, talk too much about “odd stuff” to too many people, be careless in your sporting ventures, hang with shaddy people, tell everyone what you do or plan to do that isn’t politically correct. Don’t pass up a good thing, but shutup about it!
With that said, whatever you do to your Talon SS, it is much safer to keep it looking stock, custom is great but making it look suppressed versus “more accurate” is not very good. Then if you own real stuff, don’t have a single part of you SS that will work on any of your real ones. Custom baffle stacks is a total no-no if they could possibly work in something else that burns powder. Keep things simple and “off the shelf” from ACE or Home Depot. We are talking cool air and pellets so you really don’t need that much work. Aluminum window screen and electrical tape, pvc spacers will work very well. Creating air and sound wave turbulance is the key. And remember that the SS and all the Airforce line should be treated like a firearm due to the similar power and range. If you must break out the lathe and make something awesome, keep it to yourself, and don’t sell it, EVER! Never sell a modified Talon SS unless you really trust the buyer. They find a way to use the Talon’s mods on their powder burner, get in trouble, say you built it…..They get in trouble with it, and you are likely dragged in to their mess. It’s not smart to temple the system. If you think you are on thin ground, you likely are. And “I didn’t know” has already been used. Doesn’t work either. IMHO of course.
yep Gimmick, if you mount the core permenently to the barrel you are safe. This is what I will be doing with my 9mm once I build a custom frame tube.
32″ extended frame tube with core perm. attached to drop in 9mm bbl.
resolves all legal issues very neatly including the nonsence that they want mods done by mfg of weapon
since its a custom I assembled with my own tube
Just goes to show… don’t be an idiot… or at least don’t leave a recorded message.
I guess it pays to keep your nose clean.
just to be clear Gimmick there is really no “Law” on any of this past the definitions in the 1935 National Firearms Act
practically everything else are regulations based on regulatory interpetations & rulings that while not worth the paper they are printed on, none the less have the power of law unless struck down in the Courts, Congress or by Executive Order.
This is where many folks get lost & ATTU/BATF/ATFE has a long history of reinterpeting LAW in an Ex Post Facto manner.
I can offer Dozens of examples on this…contradictions, reversals, you name it.
heres an extreme example from the 90s
Estranged girlfriend of an NFL player leaves a drunken message on ex BFs answering machine threatening to “burn his house down”. Chickenshit that he was he turns tape over to cops he for whatever reason get ATF involved with the execution of the SW on her home wherthey seize as “evidence” a wine bottle from the trash, a half a can of gas in the garage & a dish rag from under the sink. The dumb broad was charged in Federal court with “Constructive Possession of a Distructive Device” based on having the components to assemble a Molotov Cocktail and the taped intent to commit an act of arson. As I recall she received an 8 month term in the Federal Pokey.
Point in all this is if they authorities are so inclined you can be charged with all sorts of “constructive” violations of Law if the Feds can persuade a Jury that you had knowledge which to the prosecution amounts to the same thing as intent
New Thread—> Welding Silencers to an AF Barrel?
You can pull the shroud off the Crosman in a couple minutes, access the baffle stack in seconds its simply not a sealed, permenently attached or an integral unit as specified for these things to be unregulated
I agree, the MROD is in a gray area. The internal baffles are not fixed permanently to the gun’s outer tube. Since those elements can be removed and put in a PVC pipe they are unlicensed silencer components. They should have used some sort of mechanism to lock the end cap or baffles in place at manufacturing. I suspect it would be an easy fix for Crosman if the ATF showed an interest.
Splitting hairs like this shows that the writers of the law knew exactly what they were doing. The ATF agency has complete freedom to nail anyone they want – or at least have leverage if they want information in return for a plea deal.
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I would guess only if your state does not define firearm to include air guns.