.223 Condor
I am thinking of ordering a .223 barrel blank with a 1 in 9″ or even 1 in 8″ twist rate to be machined to fit my Condor. I know that the 80 FPE Daystate Air Ranger is barreled to shoot .224 bullets but I do not know what twist rate they have it set up with.
Assuming that with a 90 gr. hammer with my stock Condor valve should send a 30 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade made for the .22 hornet out around 1,050 fps. My quicky calcs say that with a 1 in 8″ barrel that bullet should be spinning at 94,500 rpm (MV x (12/by twist rate in inches) x 60 = Bullet RPM), which is about 37% the rpm the bullet would have being shot out of a .223 at 2,800 fps, but I am only concerned with it’s stabilization out to around 100 yds.
This would be making 73.4 FPE at the muzzle (in .22 no less!) and due to the bullets superior BC of .149 (compared to that of a .22 Kodiak at .0360) it would still be carrying 64 FPE at 100 Yards and 59 FPE at 150. (87% of it’s initial muzzle energy!!!) To show how impressive that is, a .25 Condor shooting a 30.7 grain Kodiak at the same FPS makes 75.1 FPE at the muzzle, but only retains about 37 FPE at 100 yards and that is the whole point of what I am looking for in this -retained energy out to 100 yds.
Chairgun2 also shows that with a 50 yd. zero, this setup would be within a 1″ vertical plane of zero from 27 to 63 yards and then about
-2″@80yds.,
-3.5″@90yds.
-5.2″@100yds.
My big concerns in this are as follows:
1. is 94,500 rpm enough to stabilize a spitzer bullet, even at only 30 grs.?
2. Loss of FPS due to 1in8″/ 1in9″ twist rate? (24″ AF barrel is 1in16″)
3. Loss of FPS due to imprinting a FMJ copper bullet at low velocity.
4. Bullet expansion at low velocity.
I have picked the Barnes Varmit Grenade due to it’s design being a “closed” hollow-point. It basically has a void behind it’s closed copper tip and I would think that at over 1,000 FPS it would provide reasonable expansion being that at 2,800 FPS it virtually explodes inside the quarry and rarely leaves an exit hole (at least in coyotes). I also like the fact that there are probably around 30-40 different .224 cal. bullets to experiment with though I am sure the heavier bullets would be even farther away from being stabile at the RPM I am figuring this would provide.
On paper it looks incredible, which in my experience quickly turns into “impossible”. I know that the bullet RPM is the Achille’s heal of the whole thing.
Any input from those with first hand experience of shooting rifle bullets (not black powder slugs) at airgun velocities would be much appreciated.
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Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
Shrp, they are great for the diablo shape and .0370 BC in .25 cal. is incredible for a pellet but unfortunately that means they are only capable of retaining around 50% of their ME.
A BC of .1 or greater would increase that figure by almost 1/3 (78% retained ME at 100 yds.) for the same weight pellet traveling at the same speed! Just think of what airgunning opportunities a gun shooting 75 FPE at 100 yds. and 68 FPE at 150 yds. would give! 😈 (insert evil laugh here)
Exactly Shrpshotr28. I don’t see how what i would like to do with my Condor is ballistically too far off from the same thinking. I mean physics are physics, right? No matter if the charge is air or powder.
I think that key components are twist rate vs. bullet length/weight for proper stabilization and frictional loss of engraving 400% more projectile into rifling vs. a standard skirted pellet.
But if that >.1 BC .25 cal. pellet I posted about early is as good as they think it will be, I might just have to abandon this idea and just simply order an easily had (and proven!) .25 barrel and a some pellets if in the end it gives me the same result. All I am after is a high retention of ME out around 100 yds. and though the .223 thing would be cool, I really don’t care how I get there, as long as I get there.
The .25 Kodiacs are actually surprisingly good for a “diablo” design. Sounds like you need to go ahead and get a .25.
When I converted mine, it resulted in a reduction of almost 6″ in pellet drop at 100yds as compared to the Kodiac pellet in .22 cal at the same velocity.
Exactly Shrpshotr28. I don’t see how what i would like to do with my Condor is ballistically too far off from the same thinking. I mean physics are physics, right? No matter if the charge is air or powder.
I think that key components are twist rate vs. bullet length/weight for proper stabilization and frictional loss of engraving 400% more projectile into rifling vs. a standard skirted pellet.
But if that >.1 BC .25 cal. pellet I posted about early is as good as they think it will be, I might just have to abandon this idea and just simply order an easily had (and proven!) .25 barrel and a some pellets if in the end it gives me the same result. All I am after is a high retention of ME out around 100 yds. and though the .223 thing would be cool, I really don’t care how I get there, as long as I get there.
thanks for the refresher BW, Always thought it was a neat round, but the particulars had been partially forgotten. I do remember the comparison of FPE with the 45 acp being made.
Point was simply that with proper twist rate and good BC, some exceptional performance can be achieved at subsonic speeds which airguns are capable of.
The 300 Whisper was developed by J.D. Jones as an suppressed entry weapon. It used a 250 grain matchking bullet at 1050 fps., I don’t know the twist rate. I was at his shop in Ohio in 1993 and he let me shoot a suppressed AR-15 in 300 Whisper while I was there. J.D. did not tell me that it was on 3 round burst, he let that be a surprise. It had a red dot site on it, the first I had ever seen. It was quiet and fun. His words were “I bet that you will never get shoot one of these in California”. He was right.
Thought about casting as opposed to swaging? Lee precision and a few others still will take drawings/dimentions of your choosing and make you a mould and sizing die.
I haven’t got the ball rolling on my idea yet but when i checked a 2 cavity mould and a bullet sizing die to fit a reloading press was going to be less than 200.00.
I’m with you on the High BC thing. Retained energy at 100+ yards would be far advantageous to high muzzle energy.
years ago when I was shooting a lot of centerfire, there was a short .30 cal cartrige made for the AR15 called a .300 whisper. It was a shortened .223 (actually .221 rem fireball) resized for a 30 cal bullet at subsonic velocity. The Whisper with a .30 cal 220 gr bullet had the same muzzle energy as a 45ACP but at 100yds, long after the 45 had fallen on its face, loosing over half its initial energy/velocity, the .300 had only lost 50-75 fps (about 90% energy retention) due to the higher BC of the long .30 cal bullet. IIRC.
That is exactly what I wanted to hear! Thanks Mario.
All i can tell you is : The Daystate 80fpe with those barrels and with those pellets are deadly accurate at ranges 100 meters plus.
I do not own i a daystate but i have a couple of friends that have them and i have seen a few posts as well which stated the same thing.
good luck with your project.
Shrpshotr. The whole thing that has me foaming at the mouth is the .100 BC (finally found specs on them). I understand that I could slap a .25 barrel on it and make the same initial ME, but having 65 FPE, almost double that of a .25 in any pellet at 100 yards is absolutely incredible. I am going to research as much about how the Daystates perform and make my decision based on that.
It is funny that you talk about swagging your own air bullets, I spent about an hour on Korbins site tonight. Do you by chance know if they are the only manuf. currently making specialized air rifle dies? Looks like my choice is spend about $200 on a .223 barrel and shoot the Daystate ammo at $8.00 a tin or spend $650 and swage my own basic copies of them at around .218 to fit my factory .22 barrel. The upside is that a 70,000 grain roll of lead wire is only $10.00.
.223 contenders are awesome, I have one in a short little synthetic rifle stock with a 16″ barrel that I love. I have the pistol setup too, in 45-70 but have only shot it with that barrel a few times right after I bought it . I appreciate your reply and will document what it does once I start on it after the holidays if I go this route.
those “air bullets” and a .223 dia barrel should do well. A 22lr will shoot a 40gr bullet very accurately even at subsonic velocity and a majority of them are only 1-14 twist barrels.
when it comes to barrel twist, several factors come into play. Its a balance of bullet weight/diameter/length (shape) that determines required twist. For any given weight and diameter, a round nosed (shorter) bullet can be stabilized with less twist than a pointed (longer) bullet of equal weight. eg. a 50gr roundnose will stabilize with less twist than a 50 gr VLD/pointed design.
There are also numerous bullet moulds available in .223-.224 diameters ranging from 40-60 grains if you have any interest in making your own. I’ve actually got a mould for a 55 gr .224 bullet I used to use in my .223rem TC contender, been dying to try a barrel like you are talking about with them, just a matter of “so many ideas and so little time”.
If you go for it, please document well and share your progress.
happy shooting.
Steved, True, the faster twist rates are for longer -meaning heavier bullets. But that is for powder burners running down the road at +2,800fps. Take that down to around 1,000 fps and the reloading manuals become fish wrapping.
a .223 bullet is just that, .223, won’t work well in an airgun barrel that is .2165″ Still appreciate the input though and since it looks like first post let me be the first to say WELCOME!
WELL BASED ON MY RELOADING MANUALS, THE FASTER TWIST RATE IS FOR LONGER BULLETS, AND THE SLOWER TWIST RATES ARE BETTER FOR SHORTER & LIGHTER. MOST BENCH REST RIFLES USE A 1 IN 14 OR SLOWER TWIST BUT AT HIGHER VELOCITY. I WOULD RECOMMEND TRYING SOME OF THOSE BULLETS & PELLETS IN YOUR STOCK BARREL IT MIGHT JUST WORK. GOOD LUCK.
STEVE
Exactly the kind of guy I was hoping for input from, thanks Voltar_1.
Please tell Voltar_2 I said “hey“.
What about shooting these, like the Daystate Air Ranger does?
39 grain hollowpoints and 40 grain solids. I need to search for their info, but they have to have alot better BC than any pellet!
(Thanks to AOA for the pics borrowed from their website as they are the only place to order them from to my knowledge)
Doubt that you will be able to shoot jacketed bullets.
Pure lead preferred hard cast maybe.
Pretty small surface area to develop adequate force on teh bullet.
Give it a go and good luck
Walter….
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Sabot: Have you thought about the 30gr Eley slugs? They are pretty much .22LR bullets. They will also give you a pretty good idea of how fast the 30gr projectiles you are considering will travel out of the muzzle. I use the Eleys and they are pretty accurate to 50yds. Have not tried any longer ranges. I don’t know what the BC is on the Eleys but it could be much better than the Kodiaks. They expand much better than the latter too.
The .25’s will definitely raise your POI by several inches @ 100yds and retain more energy. I got 2 .25 Condors now and love them but will keep my .22 for a while because I like how it shoots the 30gr Eleys.