A 257 Cast Bullet Reference Guide
Hello Gents and Gals,
PURPOSE:
This page is a page that is dedicated to the .257 caliber Air Gun (s). Call it a Dedication Page, or call it a Reference Page or call it a Info Page, it’s all of the above. This page will stay updated with “CURRENT” info and will contain info on the guns that are available in 257. And that’s the point of the page, to share information regarding the 257 caliber Air gun and to become a quick reference page for anything that has anything to do with the .257″. This will be a page that can be found quickly and will contain all “CURRENT” info on the 257. That means MORE work for me and LESS work for you.
HISTORY:
The 257 caliber powder burner cartridge has been around since about the 1920’s. But in air guns, a 257 caliber powder burner barrel liner from TJ Enterprises has only been recently installed on a current air gun. As far as we know, Jack Haley and John Bowman are the 1st creators of such said air gun/caliber combos. And this gun is the Jack Haley .257 Scandalous which won L.A.S.S.O. in 2012 on its maiden voyage in the hands of John Bowman. L.A.S.S.O. is short for “Longrange Airgun Silhouette Shooters Organization” and it is simply and event for Air Guns only and steel targets are set up out to 300 yards. The 257 Scandalous quickly gained notoriety for what it was capable of. And that is……Long Range Accuracy and power. John Bowman would also often dispatch coyotes at well over 300 yards. John Bowman has shot 10’s of thousand’s of cast bullets in the 257 Air Gun and has openly shared all that he has learned. We owe much of what we know about the 257 today to Jack and John. The Haley Scandalous 257 is a very powerful, accurate and traditional Air Gun. Web links and pictures below.
CURRENT:
Doug Noble is an avid air gunner and an excellent machinist. Today, Doug is transforming the Airforce line of guns into 257 caliber beast. Doug has a history of machining since his early High School days and his current work on the Air Force line of guns is exceptional. His many post and pictures can be viewed right here on this very forum. Air force Air Guns have been around since 1994 and currently manufacture about 6 types of air guns. Air Force air guns are not very traditional looking and might remind you of an AR-15 type gun. No traditional wood and steel and bolt handle on these…lol! The Air force gun massaged over by Doug is one powerful and accurate “NON TRADITIONAL” rig. Web links and pictures below.
Also, .257 Airforce airguns can be bought from Randy at RandL Airguns (http://www.rlairgunsupply.com/).
CALIBER:
The .257 by nature is a small game to medium game caliber. In powder burner format such as the 257 Roberts or Weatherby…etc…etc…etc, it can take Deer/Antelope sized game at some decent hunting distances depending on bullet construction/manufacturer. But in an air gun, we stick mostly to Coyote sized game at the biggest. Its one of the best small/medium game calibers IMHO. Bullets will range from about 60+ grs up to roughly 120 grs. Nominal O.D. of bullets will depend largely on groove diameter of ones barrel on his/her gun. But sizes will run between .257-.258″ as somewhat of a norm. But again, sizes can be up to about .260″+. The B.C. or Ballistic Coefficient of many available bullets will range from .129+- up to roughly over .300 BC. And in comparison to the typical .251 caliber Diablo Pellet such as JSB, Bejamin or Beeman (H&N), which has a BC of about .030+-, the lightest .257 bullet will have roughly 4x’s more BC. So as you can see, the 257 in an air gun pushing 900-1130 fps can do some amazing distance shooting and retain a lot of energy. I MEAN……..FOR AN AIRGUN AND ALL………………….LOL!
PICTURES:
Here are various pictures of some current 257 caliber air guns
John Bowman and his 257 Haley Scandalous. Winner at L.A.S.S.O. 2012
Cedric aka Tofazfou shooting his Doug Noble TalonDor 257 Cal.
Doug shooting his custom/self built Condor 257
Joe Grits 257 Condor by Doug
RJ Porter’s Haley 257 Scandalous
RoachCreek’s Haley 257 Scandalous
.257 BULLET MOLDS (manufacturers):
RCBS MOLDS – http://www.rcbs.com/
LYMAN (IDEAL) MOLDS – http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/home/
NOE MOLDS – http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?osCsid=j7u9gieqlre78413k41t63lb31
HOCH MOLDS- http://hochmoulds.com/index-1.htm
LBT MOLDS (custom molds available) – http://lbtmoulds.com/index.shtml
ARSENAL MOLDS – http://arsenalmolds.com/
BULLET CASTING EQUIPMENT:
BCE can be bought from a multitude of websites and or stores. I refuse to list any in particular cause individual results might vary. But places like MIDWAY USA is a decent place to start if you want to get into casting. Bullet casting is NOT for everyone and its time consuming. At the same time, like reloading, it’s very rewarding. It also does not take a lot of equipment to get started. Here is a list of what’s needed to start casting for the 257 (or ANY caliber):
1. Safety Goggles or Glasses or even a Face Shield
2. Long sleeve Denim shirt
3. Brushed Leather Gloves
4. Long pants in either Denim or another NON FLAMMABLE material
5. 257 Bullet Mold
6. Plenty of lead
7. LYMAN, LEE or RCBS melting pot (20 lbs is a good). You can use a propane burner with some type of cast iron pot also. But that’s up to you. Do your homework.
8. Dipper/Ladle
9. Either a reloading press or a LEE hand press that will accept a standard 7/8×14 TPI sizer die
10. Bullet Lube and some studying/advise and some Common sense
Many of these molds can be found at a multitude of websites. Here is one such example: http://www.justbulletmolds.com/. Since there is always more than one website for any particular product, I will leave the shopping and goggling up to the buyer/reader who wants to shop for the lowest price on product and shipping. The web links posted up above for molds is just a guideline and not the single BEST website for said product.
PICTURES OF VARIOUS MOLDS IN .257
Doug’s 77 gr FP LBT mold
Roachcreek’s 100 gr NOE FP Mold
Tofazfou’s 74 gr FP LYMAN 257420 Mold with custom HP Pin by ERIC at HP MOLD SERVICES
Tofazfou’s 80 gr NOE FP Mold
Lyman 257 Mold
Arsenal 257420 Mold
VARIOUS .257 BULLETS:
LYMAN 257420 bullets cast by Tofazfou. FP and HP
IDEAL 100 gr HP Spitzer cast by RJ Porter
HOCH 109 gr FP’s in 20-1 lead/tin cast by Roachcreek
Various bullets cast by Tofazfou, RJ Porter and Hunters Supply
NOE 100 gr FP’s in 20-1 lead/tin cast by Roachcreek
NOE 78.3 gr HP vs 83.5 gr FP
Lyman 257420 vs NOE 80 gr
VARIOUS CAST BULLET BC #’s:
LYMAN 67 gr LFN GC 257420 = .129
LYMAN 89 gr LRN LOV GC 257464 = .204
LYMAN 89 gr LFN GC 257312 = .208
LYMAN 98 gr LSP GC 257418 = .221
LYMAN 113 gr LRN GC 257325 = .235
RCBS 117gr SP GC 257-120-SP = .271
Here is a PROCEDURE on “FIRE LAPPING” your airguns barrel submitted by Roach Creek:
Fire lapping a barrel.
I have fire lapped several rifles in my shooting career, most of them center fires that used jacketed bullets and I did it for improved accuracy, the 257 bore air guns I did for a different reason.
I fire lapped my two TJ Barrels for my Haley because I wanted them to be smoother inside to allow more shots between cleaning and for easier cleaning once fouled. Before fire lapping I was getting around 20 shots before I had considerable streaking and accuracy degradation, now it around 45 shots.
When I cleaned I used fine bronze wool on a 25 caliber brush and then followed it up with several doubled patches on a jag, then followed by #10 weight silicone oil to prep the barrel for the first shot lubed with #10 silicone oil. After fire lapping all but the most stubborn transfer deposits are removed with double patches.
The 1-14 barrel, I fire lapped with a Wheeler engineering kit from Midway, I had used their kits before and they had worked, so I was comfortable sending abrasive coated bullets down my bore, yes that does sound drastic, which is why I wanted to go with a proven, to me kit.
I prefer fire lapping to hand lapping due to the fact I ruined a Mini 14 barrel in my misspent youth and have never revisited hand lapping since.
The kit comes with three grits in little jars, 220. 320 and 600. Also included are two 1 inch by 2 inch steel plates and very clear instructions.
On my 1-14 barrel I followed the instructions on the kit, but used 15 shots per grit instead of the recommended 20 , 220. 320 and 600 and I cleaned thoroughly each 5 shots and thoroughly between grits. In the end I had a very smooth bore that resists fouling and cleans easier once it needs cleaning.
Then I fire lapped my 1-10 twist barrel and things were different.
First of all I did not use the 220 grit and I checked between shots because I was not using lube on the bullets as before so I was interested to see if they were fouling without lube because I had not checked that before on the 1-14.
And indeed they were, if I fired one shot, I could not notice fouling, on the 2nd shot I did notice fouling and on the 3rd shot I had major streaks. As a result I fired 20 shots of 320, cleaning thoroughly between shots, which is one hell of a lot of work, and then after those 20 shots I switched to 600 grit and I fired 25 shots, cleaning each time between shots.
To me the cleaning between shots was a no brainer. If I have streaking, I am polishing the lead deposited in the bore, not the bore.
When I shot the rifle after cleaning I also noticed again something different, the accuracy with100 grain NOE bullets had noticeably improved, and of course the shot count between cleaning had also.
I had miked my groove diameter prior to fire lapping and could not notice a difference in pre and prior lapping, but I was also using my “Harbor Freight caliper for the blind” so it was hard to tell if anything had changed in dimensions. Doug slugged the barrel when I had it set back for recutting the lead, it slugged out within the norms of other TJ barrels, just one heck of a lot smoother.
I did this on the 1-10 after I had cut the lead for 100 grain NOE bullets, I did not notice a increase in the lead dimensions or that they chamber any easier, they are still in that “putting a cork in a wine bottle category”.
I fully recommend the Wheeler engineering fire lap kit, but I would recommend cleaning every shot and not using the 220 grit.
Regards,
Roachcreek
VARIOUS RECOMMENDATIONS:
Cast bullet supplier that I recommend:
RJ PORTER – http://www.accuratebigboreairgunammo.webs.com/
Jack Haley Airguns (please read his webpage): ******MR HALEY PASSED AND THE WEBSITE NO LONGER EXIST – I CHOOSE TO KEEP IT UP******
http://www.southernairgunconversion.com/
CUSTOM 257 Air Force Condors: ******DOUG NO LONGER MAKES CUSTOM CONDORS******
Doug @ dyotat100@aol.com
For Hollow Pointing any bullet mold contact Eric at:
http://www.hollowpointmold.com/
.257 Barrels by TJ Enterprises
101 “QUICK TIPS/FACTS” about the 257
1. Best bang for your buck barrel in .257 is the TJ Enterprises barrel liner (Google this company name for pricing and phone number. No internet sales)
2. Common bore and groove dimensions are .250 BORE/.257 GROOVE
3. Common O.D. dimensions of TJ barrels tend to be roughly 9/16″ (.562″+-)
4. Pure Lead or 20-1 Lead seems to be the best to date
5. Hard Cast bullets don’t appear to be as accurate as Pure Lead in TJ’s barrel liners. But don’t discount harder cast bullets. These are firearm barrels.
6. Fire Lapping or Hand Lapping both work wonders in these barrels and are pretty much necessary to keep leading down and accuracy up
7. The more these barrels are shot, the more accurate they get
8. So far, accuracy is superb at velocities from 900 to about 1130 fps. More data to come. Please test velocity for your particular guns best accuracy
9. Various Air Guns and Barrel Manufacturers could be used for this project. The list is still growing.
10. To date, both the Condor and the Haley 257’s have hit Soda cans at 446, 502 and 552 yards!
IMO: Guns that DO and DON’T make for good 257 conversions
DOES – Jack Haley air guns (particularly the ones that fill to over 3600 psi)
DOES – DAQ air guns
DOES – Daystate Air Rangers (especially the 80 FPE version)
DOES – Daystate Wolverine 303 (expensive gun)
DOES – Big Bore EXTREME air guns
DOES – Korean Big Bore air guns (Shing Sun Career, Sumatra’s, Dragon Claws andSam Yang’s. And even the EVANIX 9mm guns)
DOES – XP Big Bore air guns including the Corsair
DOES – Air Force Condors
DOES – OF COURSE ANY CUSTOM BUILT or HIGHLY TUNED AIRGUN SUITED FOR MAKING SUCH POWER
DOES NOT – CALIBER CRICKETS (lol)
DOES NOT – EDGUNS
DOES NOT – FX BOSS 30 cal (too much restrictions within the guns internals)
DOES NOT – TOO MANY TO LIST HONESTLY (small bore air guns in general are not good for this conversion due to either TUBE size volume or internals that lack the ability to be highly modified. Many SB air guns are made for consistency while making 12-50 FPE of power and not 130-200 FPE)
***DISCLAIMER*** Due to a lack of knowledge on every single gun made today and also the machinist in existence and their capabilities, the above opinions are due to available current info and even the LACK OF. The sport is growing and the amount of people that are getting into 257 cal airgunning is steadily/slightly growing. So information is CREEPING in at a snails pace. But as more info comes out, the above listed info MIGHT change.
Game taken with the .257 cal.:
CUSTOM PARTS SECTION:
All parts by ADAM VIGIL (http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9980):
http://www.maddogriflestocks.com/
MD stock on my TD257
All Replies
Mike,
A lead thermometer, a very good scale and 20-1 alloy.
20-1, for better cavity fill.
Lead Thermometer, to keep things at around 725 to 730 degrees for fewer wrinkles and better consistency.
Weighing to + or – one tenth grain for better consistency.
I am sure many thought me as being anal but the results on paper prove the point over and over again, especially when you triple the range your shooting at.
I just bought another mold last night off Ebay, a 89 grain Loverin design, think round nose NOE 80 grain with the tiny little bands, it is a vintage Ideal mold.
It was my fear that I may have gone a bit too far in the milling of this mold. I wanted to only remove the gas check area, but went a little too far. 😳 I was shooting for a 60 grain bullet and ended up with a 54 grain. 😆 (Getting old and BLIND sucks!) 👿
But in the end, it got me to the 1000 fps I was looking for for a good flat trajectory. But would it be accurate. Well, YES-Yes it is!!! 😉 😀
This bullet barrel combo is very touchy as to what lub you give her. But get it right, and she really preforms! 😈
These are cast from 20-1 lead tin in the moded 257420 mold. The tin seems to help get a well filled out bullet, with a more consistant weight.
Seems this ended up being a happy oop’s! 😆 I love it when a plan gets F’ed up and still comes together! :8:
KnifeMaker
Further testing, and things learned
Old Goat sent some bullets for testing, along with a batch I cast up. And a few things were learned, or relearned for those that know what they are doing casting small bullets. 😳
First off, I learned the hard way just why so many say casting a .22 bullet is so difficult. Yes, these are .257 bullets, but in this case the old warnings apply. Rules are rules, and when you ignore them, shit happens. 😆
With a heavier bullet, a couple tenths of a grain isn’t as much of an issue as when a very lght bullet is being cast. It is all about the precentages. A 2 tenths grain difference in a 50 grain bullet is a much bigger deal than 2 grain mistake in a 500 grain bullet. 😆
The bullets that Old Goat sent were good looking bullets, but didn’t shoot well at all. After weighing the bullets, I found that the weight varried a lot. As much as 2-3 grains a bullet. Not tenths, but full grains. Why? that was the question. I put them under a mag. Glass and found wrinkels. Every where. Turns out that OG was using a bottom pour pot and putting the sprue waste back in the pot very often. This I feel, put cooler lead in the bottom of the pot, where the poor spout was. And too cool lead, makes for wrinkeled bullets. And wrinkels make for crevaces, or voids in a bullet. In other words, it makes for ligher, unbalanced bullets.
This is in no way putting down Old Goats casting. as our goal was to test, and testing is to do just that. Test and discover what works, what doesn’t and why. 😉
I cast up a batch of 54 grain 257420’s i a mold that I milled down to drop at apx. 54 grains rather than the standard 74 grain. What I learned was that the mould, or bullets were very-very picky on casting technique. What would still shoot well in the 74 grain version, would shoot like crap in the much lighter 54 grain version.
Even bullets that looked superb, and weighed very very close, could still be terrible shooters. For instance, I found that although a rounded base effects accuracy in a standard 420 bullet, a very slightly rounded base, such as a very small area of not so crisp base would not effect a 74 grain bullet much at all, while the same condition in the 54 grain bullet made for shot gun patterns. (as you can see in the bottom left of the target paper).
Lesson Learned? If you are going to cast light bullets, you better be on your game. 😯 Damit! And I was having so much fun putting out so many bullets with the double cavity mold. But now, sadly, It is one bullet at a time if I want top accuracy.
And now comes the topic of breach fit. More on this later I’ll let the pictures speak for them selves. The Non sized fit the breach like RoachCreek suggested. Like a Wine bottle cork. The sized, kinda sloppy. Both fit the land and grove of the bbl. very well.
At least I can skip the sizing operation! 😀 😆
KnifeMaker
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I really like the way you ended that post RC. It shows Grace and Integrity.
As far as the arrows acting the way you describe, it is known as archers paradox. It is litterly the arrow shafts flexing from the force imparted to them from the bow string, and totally different from what you are seeing in bullets. I think Yrrah observations have been very enlightening on this subject. But still hard for my mind to wrap around.
I have been testing the mod’ed 257420 mould bullets further, and am very pleased with the results. But I have to be very careful when casting, as with such a light bullet, any imperfection will greatly effect accuracy. It is forcing me to learn quality casting FAST!!! 😯
I wish my range here at the house was longer. I am going to clear some brush if we ever get to close on the property. Then I stretch it out to 100 yards. But I did get a chance to sneak a few shots at a rock on the other side of a pond. (not telling location) 😆 That lasered at 198 yards. Leaning on a fence post. The rock is about the size of a grape fruit and buried in the bank of the pond at water level. Showing a miss instantly. Well, with a .25.4 JSB King, I can hit it fairly often. It takes a full turn of the scope turret, with 0 being the 50 yard zero, and one turn being on 18. The Kings require it to go to 16 past the second “0”. The .257’s at 54 grains require one turn + mark 11 to get the same distance. The first time I tried it, It went way over the rock at mark 16 on the turret, so I dropped it down to 12, and slightly over shot. Down to 11 and it dusted the rock. Three more shots, and all three dusted the rock. :8:
I know this is not paper accuracy, but leaned on a fence post, and dusting a rock at almost 200 yards with every shot, well, needless to say, I’m impressed.
BB Guns have “Come a long way Baby”! :8:
I think the .22 long rifle will stay in the rack. 😉
KnifeMaker
edit
Today I shot 4, 5 shot groups that were moa or better at 280 yards with cast bullets thru my Haley.
Accuracy wise in my Haley, with the 80 grain NOE bullet cast of 20-1 and sorted to +or- one tenth grain, on my personal 280 yard range, I average right around 1.2 MOA in the ever swirling wind which is simply a real world condition here on the piedmont of the Pacific Northwest coast range.
When the wind stops I go under 1 MOA and if I have a really good day I get 1/2 MOA or better.
Thing is you have to realize that a 1 MPH wind, remember a 8 MPH is what you feel on your face, the 1 mph wind will blow my bullet 1 moa or roughly 2.9 inches at 280 yards.
So a lot of it is just luck.
Recently I shot a .20 or smaller group, it was hard to measure on the steel plate and perhaps the measurement does not matter, for the fact is, it was a freak group, it was a anomaly. The best group I have ever shot in a lifetime of long range shooting prior to owning this Haley 257 at the range of 300 yard was a group I shot a 1.75 group sighting in prior to elk season with a Interarms Mark 10 in 7mm.
And it was head and shoulders better than anything I had shot at that time.
This cast bullet gun, the Haley 257 with the TJ barrel, does this about once a week but I shoot a lot of groups.
Now here is the strange thing, at 100 yards, which I do not shoot very often, perhaps one in 50 of my shooting is at that range, I do not get the precision of accuracy that I get at 280 yards. If you simply multiply 2.8 x the group size I get at 100 yards, that figure will be much larger than the groups I get at 280 yards.
Harry in OZ says that some bullets do not stabilize at shorter ranges, is that why they would be better at longer ranges in groups? I know if you watch in slow motion arrows coming out of a bow, they flex and wander all over the place, but shoot tight groups, perhaps Mike can answer why this is ?
It makes no sense to me, perhaps it is just that I shoot more at 280 yards therefore have a greater chance of a “epiphany of randomness”.
However my Forte, if I truly possess one, is shooting at ranges past 250 yards, it is where I have shot rifles most of my life and where I do my best work, and for that, the Haley 257 with a TJ barrel is the single most accurate rifle I have ever owned, in a sea of replica and original Sharps rifles, M1A’s of every sort, custom and factory barreled Remington 700’s many of them 700 Sendaero’s and even a SR25 for those of you who know what that is.
Now many of my best groups over the years have been with Jacketed bullets of course, but I have fired hundreds of lbs of cast bullets thru rifles with Douglas and Krieger barrels, they have not matched the accuracy I get with the Haley and the 257 TJ barrel.
And remember I retired at age 31, 33 years ago and dedicated my life to hunting and shooting and at age 31 just after retiring I won the Oregon Practical rifle championship shooting a AR 15 and M1A at ranges of point blank to a quarter mile, so I have been dedicated to this for a while. The range I shot my 615 yard 12 oz cola can is a range I lived on for over a decade and shot on all the time, long range shooting is what I do.
I truly do not understand why this gun shoots as good as it does. yes I have a very good scope, but that barrel unscrews with hand pressure or the very worst case scenario with a screw driver in the vents of the muzzle break to break it loose for cleaning, it vibrates if you tap it noticeably, I use the rubber bulbs to try and off set that vibration but it still rattles and vibrates and shoots so very well at long range.
I can only attribute it to what Butcher terms as “air power being the very best way to launch cast bullets”.
That and perhaps a man at the height of his game produced something very special at the last few weeks of his productivity here on earth.
My barrel is a hair over 30″ and I have the 1 in 14″. My condor is putting out 177 fpe with the 74 gr lymans. In our “condor” platform you will be best served, as charlie said, with the lighter bullets. I have yet to try out the noe (only the modified noe that Tedd sent me) but at 40 yards the lyman’s are nearly hole in hole.
I doubt you will find a barrel that shoots many bullets well. Hell I’m happy to have a barrel that shoots one bullet so good!
While not a Condor, I have two TJ barrels for my Haley, both 36 inches in length, one a 1-14 and one a 1-10.
With the 257420 the 1-14 shoots best, every other weight pat 70 grains the nod goes to the 1-10, it is about 20 FPS slower.
With the Condor, the 257420 is the best bullet for the power plant, however the 420 with the gas check removed may turn out to be the best for 100-150 yards and under.
I shoot at 280 yards 98 % of the time, so that is where I am zeroed.
My most accurate bullet at 280 yards is the NOE 80 grain.
What kind of barrel lengths are you guys using on your condor platforms? I’m thinking of going with a 28″ barrel. Also, there’s two twist rates I see- 1:10″ and 1:14″. Which would you guys suggest for what bullets? Speeds? What would be a good compromise (barrel length, twist rate) for shooting multiple bullet types accurately? Oh- and what distance are you guys sighting these rifles in at? To start, I’m thinking of a 28″ barrel, 1:14″ twist, to shoot the 257420 bullets. Thoughts?
KQ,
It is some sort of fiber board.
You rock..!!!!
I like the way you think and shoot !!!
What is the material of the board…pvc?
This is a short note on how I sort bullets and inspect them.
Usually a bullet with wrinkles will be lighter than one without, so weighing finds a lot of errors as far as wrinkles and internal voids than you can’t see, along with rounded bases, all of which are detrimental to accuracy if only for the sake of being outside the norm on weight.
I have a board that is roughly 12×12 inches that I have drilled 15 or so rows of 20 holes that are just right for putting the nose of 25 caliber bullets in.
I use a RCBS 2500 scale, I tried the various small scales and the RCBS 1500 scale but found that when I went back and weighed each row again to double check, the weights had changed.
I use the rows to put the bullets that are weighed and sorted to 1/10th grain, with the nose in the holes the bases are all looking straight up at me for inspection for rounded bases or divots in the bases.
After a while I have a graph made using the bullets as the lines in the graph, this tells me what my most common weights are which again gives me uniformity.
When the rows get full, I then use the NOE base uniformity tool, the knurled rod in the photo, to remove any imperfection on the base while the bullets are all nose down in the board, then remove the full row and one row to each side, then I have successfully sorted to + or – one tenth grain. If I have a lighter or heavier row I can take them after those rows get full.
Today I ended up with 81.8 + or- one tenth and 81.5 grain + or- one tenth. Roughly a third of the bullets were returned to the melt to be recast for being out of the normal ranges of weight or for having defects.
Then I size the bullets and place them in a freezer bag with the marked weight on it, the sizing lube then works for shooting.
Joe: you want to try out some of the BIGGER ones? That is WAY TOOOO much information! If you want to get up to the donkey class, PM HOOT and he will be happy to give you the ins and outs! 😯
Joe; don’t send any of the Lyman bullets to Doug. Both of my Lyman 257420 molds dropped at .2585”-.2589” but, they both had a “flat” spot that measured around .2530-.2540 at the forward most driving band and at the base of the metplat after sizing down to .2575”. I tried a bunch of different variables, high/low temp, longer/shorter wait times before knocking the sprue plate open, different alloys, different drop heights ( I use a Lee bottom pour lead pot, and I still got the smaller OD in that part of the bullet. The flat spot is either a characteristic of the Lyman molds or, I got 2 molds that I should have returned; before I butchered them.
RC sent me 50 .257420 20-1 HP bullets. They mike out at .2578-.2580. I am either not doing something right, (DUH!), or I somehow got 2 off center Lyman 257420 molds.
I used my mike to measure the OD. Once I started to see the variance in the OD on both Lyman molds, I took out my certified .25000” calibrating block and checked my mike. My mike was off by 0.00001” give or take a little. I had to take the mike apart and adjust it. I think that I have it dead on now but; it is hard for an oldgoat’s eyes to be certain about the last RHCH!
I have at least 30 Lee sizing dies, everything but a .258. I have been trying to buy one from Lee for over 9 months. They keep telling me that they are not currently taking custom orders and that I should call back in 2 months. I found a NIB Lee .258” sizing die on Ebay. It resized .261 NOE bullets down to .25757”! I just happened to have a .2585” McMaster-Carr reamer and the Lee sizing die now drops bullets at .25839”. I might run the reamer back thru a few times.
I would be interested to find on what measurement Doug come up with on the .2575 NOE slugs that I sent you.
Sorry Ced: this topic is rapidly getting out of hand and is gonna quickly overcome Loco’s 35 page Matador topic.
That might not be a bad thing! Lots of good info here and I am trying to absorb all of it.
Thanks Mischief…I posted pics. Good info Charlie! Tedd, I would love to try out some of the bigger ones.
You heard the man! If anyone wants to try out some of Tedds bullets (which to my novice “casting” eye look pretty darn good Flat/true bases and all! Let me know and I will send some your way. I am going to send some to Doug so he can mic them Tedd.
Josh, if you here someone creeping in the middle of the night…don’t shoot, it’s just 80 coming for that die! 😆
Good information Joe.
Also an insight on the quality of Josh’s, aka RJ Porter’s bullets.
Groups posted on one bullet sellers site that they are proud enough to show shot at the same distance of 40 yards.
So far this week on the TAG which is quickly turning into the “go to” reference forum on air guns and cast bullets, we have had Jeremy 360’s insightful thread on the experience of HS bullet quality and the futility of selling mass produced bullets that are sized down way beyond where they should be, and I present the above photo off a bullet sales site that the owner was proud enough to offer up as an example of what his bullets would do out of a Sumatra and we see what our own RJ Porters bullets will do on comparison. We also see what shooters who are relative amateurs, Mike and Tedd, at casting and the excellent groups they are getting with bullets from molds they have altered.
Fact is, those who cast and shoot the bullets in their own rifles will get better results than those trying to sell a one size fits all or I will squeeze it down to what you need 🙄 . We see that quality in our own member’s bullets here. RJ Porter.
There is no magic out there in casting bullets. You can improve your bullets through practice, sorting and weighing, but what we are seeing here is 80 year old designs shooting bug hole groups. But again as I say, is that if your shooting your own bullets in your own rifle and trying to improve you own results for yourself, when you branch out and sell those bullets, we as air gun cast bullet shooters get better quality.
But what we also see is members sharing bullets at their own expense to “pass it on”, information and technique and true results.
Interesting bit of trivia, the 257420 was introduced in the 1930’s, the very next bullet that Lyman/Ideal adopted was the #421, known to many of us here as the excellent Elmer Keith SWC that started a unending trend in cast bullet design, the 429421. It was a good year for Lyman/Ideal and a great year for us cast bullet shooters.
Several months ago on another site designed to pat the respective backs of the tradesmen on that unmentioned site, I as a bullet caster was told that I should stop casting my own bullets and take advantage of the collective 45 or 50 years of experience of the bullet smiths who frequent that site, a circle jerk of one size fits all bullets salesmen if you will. That was sort of hard for me to read without laughing having had 42 years of casting experience myself which I had explained to the experts at the time to no avail.
Fact is, if you want information on cast bullets in air guns go no further than the TAG to learn how to roll your own. If your just starting out and not casting bullets yet, call RJ Porter.
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Thanks RC, and no doubt! I will try to get one after the first.
Old Goat is using one, but as you know, using a probe will measure the temp of the lead in the pots highest temp. As he had the themometer in the pot, but the lead setteled to the bottom was cooler, he didnt’ get the temp of the dead being pored from the bottom.
I only add lead when the pot is too low, and give it plenty of time to come up to heat. Ted and I are learning! And mostly thank’s to you RC!
The un-sized and inspected bullets are getting minute of squirrel head at 80 yards where as the rounded base bullets are getting minute of somewhere on a wild dogs ass at 80. 😆 😳
Knife