Q:

A Bunch of Math Associated with a 9 mm big bore gun

I just got done building a 9mm bigbore homebuild.
In the process, I used some physics to calculate (estimate):

1 the lock time
2 the time required to open the valve
3 the force holding the valve open

These are only aproximations of the real world values, but the helped me figure out how to get the best performance out of the spring, hammer, breach, and valve.

Lock time:

.17 kg hammer
2 inch hammer stroke = .0508 meter

Standard formula for motion:

x = 1/2 A T squared

In our case:
x = hammer stroke = 2 inch = .0508 meter
A = acceleration of the hammer
T = lock time (time for the hammer to hit the breach, from when it is released)

To get acceleration of the hammer we need newtons first law:

F = Mass times Acceleration
Or:
Acceleration = Force / Mass

In our case:
Acceleration = acceleration of the hammer
Force = spring force on the hammer = 20 pounds force = 88 newtons
Mass = Mass of the hammer = .17 kilograms

A = 88 / .17 = 517 meters / second squared

Plugging that number into the first equation:

.0508 = .5 715 T squared

T = .014
Lock time = 14 milliseconds

Velocity of hammer as it strikes the breach:

V = A T = 517 meters/second sq .014 seconds = 7.23 meters/second

Time required to open valve:
When the hammer hits the breach, momentum must be conserved

M1 V1 = M2 V2

M1 = breach mass + hammer mass = .17 kg + .045 = .215
M2 = hammer mass = .17 kg
V1 = breach + hammer velocity =
V2 = hammer velocity = 7.23 meters / second

V1 is the velocity of the combined mass of the hammer and breach
And is the initial velocity of the valve as it first starts to open.

After calculation V1 = 5.7 meters / second

If the valve opens up by .2 inch = .0051 meter
When the valve is fully open its velocity is zero:

.0051 / 5.7 X 2 = .0018 seconds to open the valve

This is just under two millisecond to open the valve.

After the valve is knocked open it is held open by the piston
effect of the tophat in the breach

For my 9MM bigbore, the diameter of the breach is .5 inch.
The force holding the valve open is the area of the .5 inch breach opening times the back preassure in the barrel.

F = pie R squared X back pressure = 3.14 X .25 sq X 1000PSI = .196 X 1000 = 196 pounds

196 pounds holding the valve open (if the breach pressure is 1000 PSI)
The valve will not close until the back pressure drops, as when the pellet leaves the barrel.

This last number (196 pounds holding the valve open) convinced me to install a very heavy valve return spring, but cut it so there is practally no preload on it. That did wonders for performance. It allowed the valve to open easily (no preload) and wide, but prevented tank dump. The previous spring was lighter but had a lot of preload, so it was hard to open, then was too weak to close the valve quickly after the pellet left the barrel (I was experiancing a partial tank dump, because the valve didnt close quick enough).

The formula for conservation of momentum: M1 V1 = M2 V2 , tells us to get the fastest valve opening, you need to make the hammer heavy and the breach as light as you can. Use brass for the hammer and use aluminum for the breach. If you make the breach out of steel or brass, you will need a very, very heavy hammer and a very strong spring.

14 milliseconds sounds long for a lock time??? Also, its another 5 milliseconds for the projectile to clear the barrel . Total time from when you pull the trigger till the pellet clears the barrel is about 20 milliseconds. To me that sounds like enough time to pull the shot!??

Mark

Mods/Machinists

All Replies

Viewing 6 replies - 1 through 6 (of 6 total)

I gotta say, my head hurts after trying to read that.

I love airguns, but Ill leave the building of them to you geniuses.

Having said that, brilliant stuff Mark.

you guys are both “out there” in the world of “airgun geekdom”; but while I wouldn’t begin to try the math on my own(probably could, but have no desire to), I do understand the logic behind the calculations. Great info and thanks for sharing………..just glad I’m not the one crunching the numbers. 😕 🙂

Bart:

You are absolutly right on everything you said!!
I thought I was the only dork / geek here!!

I just wasnt getting the performance I wanted, So I stole a little time at work and tried to understand the physics of the hammer opening the valve.

If I lightened up the valve spring, the valve would stay open for 10 or 20 milliseconds (partial tank dump).

If I put more coils of the same streingth spring in, the power woud drop, and I could hear that the valve was closing too soon (a very crisp muzzel blast).

Finally put in a short heavy spring (with very little preload).
Now it kicks ass!

I was studieing “elastic collisions” on the internet today.

Thanks for the critique!

Bart:

You are absolutly right on everything you said!!
I thought I was the only dork / geek here!!

I just wasnt getting the performance I wanted, So I stole a little time at work and tried to understand the physics of the hammer opening the valve.

If I lightened up the valve spring, the valve would stay open for 10 or 20 milliseconds (partial tank dump).
If I put more coils of the same streingth spring in, the power woud drop.

Finally put in a short heavy spring (with very little preload).
Now it kicks ass!

Thanks for the critique!

hehe, i just posted exactly 24 hours after your original post 😯

*edit* btw, my reply only adds refinement to the approximations to get closer to the real world values, they have absolutely no influence on the original purpose of your calculations, which is figure out which components influence the valve action in what way
actually, the main purpose of my reply is just to show that i too can do physics 😆 🙄

first, i feel like a total dork for understanding every word you posted 😆
second, i see some things that can be added to your calculations

– the acceleration is relative to the spring force as you said, but that spring force is also relative to the distance the spring is compressed, so the acceleration changes relative to distance, which changes relative to time
but, seeing as the force is directly relative to the distance, you can take a substitute constant value for the force by taking the begin force at the begin of the hammer stroke F1 and the end force at the end of the hammer stroke F2, both directly relative to their associated compression distances X1 and X2, add them up together and divide them by two: (F1 + F2) / 2
that makes for a substancially smaller acceleration, smaller striking velocity and longer locktime

-the M1*V1=M2*V2 equation doesn’t take the mass of the valve stem into account, but that’s relatively small
you could state that a light valve stem is slightly beneficial for faster valve opening

-the initial velocity V1 also decreases over the 0.2 inch travel due to valve return spring force and the force of the tank pressure
if you assume that the valve stem motion isn’t stopped abruptly by slamming into the valve face, you can assume a linear decrease in velocity v= v0 – a*t
you can then approximate the average velocity of travel by dividing the initial velocity by two
so your valve opening time would double
this doesn’t count in most of our cases, since our top hats DO slam into our valve faces, so the calculation would require the knowledge of the spring value k for the spring force F=k*x, and the force due to pressure in the tank F=p*(valve seat surface), with which you could calculate the decelleration value a, in which case the valve opening time would be somewhere between your calculated value, and my assumed value

Viewing 6 replies - 1 through 6 (of 6 total)

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