Accuracy Issue – Pellet spread
This is a problem I’ll figure out for myself, by experimenting, but I thought I’d post the problem, in hopes of saving some time.
Gun: ‘TalonP
Pels: Benjamin domed, 27.8gr, .25 cal
When I first got my TalonP, I was putting pellets inside the area of a dime. Then, I got a shroud, and installed it. After the shroud installation, my groups became erratic.
To cut to the chase, I removed and reinstalled the barrel, shroud and power sheel, multiple time. Sometimes I could get fairly tight groups. Sometimes, it was almost impossible to zero the sights. No matter what I did, there would be flyers that were 2 or more inches from the point of zero.
I know for a fact that the pellets are not contacting anything related to the shroud. I have done visual through the bore and it’s perfect. I have also inspected the inside diameter of the muzzle and the hole in baffles. No contact. The shroud is perfectly installed. But what I’m wondering is if the power setting can cause this behavior. I did not mark the original power setting.
The problem appears to be one of not being able to reliably zero the TalonP, with my optic sight.
1) Can the power setting cause this?
2) Can barrel alignment cause this? Barrel? Barrel mount design would seem to make this an unlikely cause.
What I plan to do is remove the shroud and retest. Just to verify my belief this is not shroud related.
Then, I will try zeroing the gun with various power settings.
I might also try some other pellets but since these were working perfectly before, I’d like to solve the problem using these pellets.
Unless I’m missing something, this should lead to a solution. Is there something I have missed that could explain the problem, that I haven’t considered?
All Replies
I’m getting 1040 fps with the JSB’s which equals 60.99 fpe. That’s with the TT quick change top hat “wide open” and power setting #6. If I crank the power wheel up to max and shoot wide open with 71gr slugs, 850fps which equals 113.93fpe. Keep in mind tho that this is a Talon-Dor.
Wildfire
Do you still get good velocity using only 2500psi?
I was actually hoping to go to heavier pellets, at high pressure. But I guess one should use the combination that works best. 😉 Or works PERIOD! 😀
JSB Exact Kings 25.39gr. I usually order them from Randy @ R&L because every time I try to order from Pyramyd, they are out of stock. I fought with that same issue for a long time before realizing my guns sweet spot.
Wildfire
Good luck and let me know what happens.
Wildfire (Mike)
That could explain a lot. I have been filling to 3000. AND I definitely notice, which was confusing, that after I fire 6 or 8 or more shots, that the groups tighten up. BUT I only really see this phenomena, with the shroud. I have definitely got to get out with the chrono and do some testing.
I just got a response from the mfg. of the shroud and he asked me to measure the hole in the endcap. He said some of them were drilled with the wrong dimensions (too small). I guess that’s also a possibility. I will know later, when I measure it.
What specific JSB weight and type do you use? Might as well get some that work. I have seen a lot of recommedations on the JSBs.
Try the JSB’s, they fly great! Also, what are you filling the gun to? Most of these Air Force guns can be pretty inconsistent if filled to 3000psi. I only fill to 2500. Anything over that and I have fliers till I get down to 25-2600psi!
Good luck and let me know what happens.
Wildfire (Mike)
I was thinking it might be the power or pellets. Also, since it’s barely striking the front cap and none of the baffles, I was thinking about opening it up as well. AND trying some different pellets.
Thanks
I also have the R&L shroud on my Talon( see pictures in Talon/Talon SS section, new member wanting to show off his baby)
Sometimes, installing a shroud will change your POI. If I take my shroud off and reinstall it, I usually have to adjust but if I leave it on, things will not change. The groups should not open up unless the pellets are clipping somewhere.
I had a problem with clipping when I first installed my shroud and shot Eunjin 43’s. I open up the holes in the baffles by .005 and the problem was solved.
Wildfire
I’m now rethinking this. I think the shroud is the source of the problem. I took the gun apart and cleaned everything. I put it back together and very carefully tightened the bushing screws evenly.
Then, I put the original end cap on. And test fired the gun. Flawless operation. Bullet impacts were within the area of a nickel (45′).
Then, I put the shroud back on. I did notice too that there was very tiny trace of lead on the inside surface of the bore on the shroud endcap. The pellets were obviously touching, as they went by. But the problem is the bore seems perfectly aligned. I looked through the bore from the breech end and both bore and end cap were concentric, as best as the naked eye can tell.
However, when test firing through the shroud, my groups were over 2″ spread. Sometimes a flyer would be 4 or more inches off. As the power drops, the shots tighten up somewhat but don’t have the same point of impact as without the shroud. hmmm this is going to require some investigation.
The shroud is the R.L. Shroud and has a good rep. from what I can tell, so it must be something on my end. But there is no alignment to be done. There is a mechanical alignment, as a result of the front bushing to barrel fit. I need to research if anyone else using the TalonP and the R.L Shroud had any issues.
PS: I am getting good at taking my gun apart now though. 🙂
You really should get in there and do a clean and lube also. I break mine down and clean and lube about every 300-400 shots. After a while, you can do it with your eyes closed. It’s very important to keep those breech “o” rings lubed with the silicone. They are the main seal when you fire the gun. Many of us also polish the breech end of the barrel to a mirror shine for smoother operation and better sealing. I personally think it helps to prolong the life of the “o” rings also. I did mine with 600, 800, 1000, and then 2000 grit sand paper.
According to Talon Tunes website, the Quick Change top hat will also work with the Talon P. It’s a really nice set up. You could run it “wide open” ore use one of the two different restrictors that come with it. No little grub screws to come loose EVER AGAIN!
You can access the TT website by simply clicking on the TT add at the top of the page. It’s in Air Force accessories.
It’s also very easy to change. Simply pry out the old top hat with 2flat blade screwdrivers and push the new top hat in as far as you can by hand then “dry fire” the gun a few times. You can find a video on this forum that shows how to do it.
Wildfire (Mike)
Will do. I do still have some issues. Somethings still not right. And the tophat worked loose again. Going to be ordering a tophat for my talonP, if they make one for that tank. If not, I need to locktite those suckers down.
Please keep us posted on how things work out. I’m certainly NOT an expert but feel free to contact me through PM if you need any help/advice!
Wildfire (Mike)
I already love the gun.
First thing tomorrow, I’m making a shopping list. 😉
Wildfire
Anything else I’m going to need. I hate reinventing the wheel and don’t mind picking up where someone else left off. 😉
Using some trickery, I managed to get it back to close to original, I think. There was a line around the valve where I think the tophat was originally. And I had some photos I took, of the tank. So, using all of this and the position of the screws, I think I’m close. Also, I had a laser on the gun, that I put on the crosshairs, at my indoor range distance. While I was dinking around trying to figure out what was going on, my Vortex never lined up with that laser again. After I figured my first guess to the position of the top hat, and fired a few shots and got it zeroed again, I turned on the laser and it was nearly back on crosshair. So, I’m pretty close.
Still, I think I’m going to check all this out on the chrono.
TalonP, R.L. Shroud, Vortex Spitfire 3x
Thanks,
PS: Heading downstairs to sinch up on my set screws on the CondorSS TopHat. 😀
Glad you found that problem. Once you get all these little “bugs” worked out, you’re going to be a happy camper. The stock top hats are notorious for loosening up and shifting. You should contact Tony @Talon Tunes and order a one piece “quick change” unit from him. It has different size inserts so it is completely tunable. I love mine! While you’re at it, he also sells a stainless steel screw to replace the plastic one in the power wheel. In the mean time, start with .070 on your stock top hat and locktite those little screws.
You should pick up some divers silicone and some dry lube so you can “slick” things up next time you’re in there. Try JSB Exact Kings. Almost everyone’s gun seems to love them.
Wildfire
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I ordered a bunch of JSB pellets. And I tested a fix to my problem (other thread). I think I’ve verified the problem. Or should I say “confirmed” the problem and a solution.