ALERT – Restricted Hi-Flow Valve travel on new Condor
My Condor is new as of August and I had heard, just recently, about restrictions in the valve travel in the newer Hi-Flow valves. Recently I had moved my Tophat setting to .110 and shoot about 100 rounds.
I had a a factory setting of about .80 and after installing an ETaC and shimming .024, I lost power, so I added that to my Tophat gap and the power came back.
Well I depressurized the tank to check the travel and sure enough it is restricted.
The distance from tank face to spring retaining nut face is 1.485. The distance from valve brass face to spring seating area on the delrin is 1.035, or 0.450 for the spring to fit in. The spring is .730 full length and crushed is 0.389, meaning there is only 0.341 of travel, leaving .109 for Tophat maximum gap.
Had I received a tank where the valve brass was screwed in to flush with the tank face, I would have been another .030 short, leaving my maximum Tophat setting at ~.080 before stem deformation would have occurred.
My figures may not be accurate, but my Result is.
Result = Deformed stem at the ports.
Warning = DO NOT adjust your Tophat, unless you check it afterwards for full travel.
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Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
perhaps one of us could be brave and call AF to ask when they started this (if they dont deny it) so there isnt a sudden rash of tank draining to see if the valve is full travel? i got my tank from tony with a 1.2k charge and dont like to empty my tanks, so ive never seen if i have full travel or not… 😯
I turned a deeper grove in my retaning nut for the spring tension to be releaved but i do have a longer spring in mine already and that was used to stop tank dump a long time ago glad thats a thing of the past . And it help with air flow i think. It kinda an easy mod to do if u have the tools.
when i did my condor valve mod , when i first bought the gun, i put white Teflon tape around the retainer nut so i could only tighten it enough to close the valve with the spring force , this leaves the nut pretty far out, and the tape keeps the nut from moving around.
If the stem travel is being limited by the delrin head/compressed spring bottoming out on the brass spring retainer, couldn’t one just unscrew the brass spring retainer until sufficient clearance is obtained?
Loctite the retianer in place, or shim the gap so the retainer can get tightened up.
Maybe I don’t understand the problem.
Additonally think about this:
When the valve is fully depressed from a hammer strike, the spring will collapse to nearly fully crushed and what does that do….
It creates a pipe that seals off the air flow from the tank at the retaining nut, so the only air going up the valve stem is what is left in the chamber.
TagDagger’s idea keeps the air flow open through the spring coils from the tank and is essentially a fore runner to the Talon P Direct Flow valve.
If that kit gives me the extra spring travel and basically the same spring rate, you got yourself an order. In fact you best gear up as that is going to be a hot item.
Had I received a tank where the valve brass was screwed in to flush with the tank face, I would have been another .030 short, leaving my maximum Tophat setting at ~.080 before stem deformation would have occurred.
So if you keep it under the full extension that would mean the valve face (behind the tophat) is being hit by the backside of the tophat when struck hard…
Not necessarily as that would occur if there was enough free spring travel. Having collapsed the spring is the killer, if the Tophat does not strike the valve face.
Maybe we are saying the same thing.
BTW, I am using Tagdaggers valve spring and retainer on mine and it keeps it from bottoming out.
Regards,
Roachcreek
I KNEW I hadn’t reinvented the wheel, I sensed it was old hat!
Nice stuff TD!!! 😉
I’m thinking the best approach is to mill down the length of the spring retaining nut. Maybe I should find a spring that has more travel but same spring rate.
I’m open to easy fixes for this problem. (no lathe)
There was a thread a while back about the tophat bottoming out being a bad thing. I guess that is true, but the stem bottoming out is much worse. If it does, its got to turn right or left cause its not going down any further 😯
The Airarcher v-kit has a bored out retainer and a longer vspring to keep this from happening. The lighter longer vspring also helps with valve lock at the higher pressures.
The #1 Quickest way for a successful company to become unsuccessful is to start changing stuff. When a business changes things its usually for the wrong reasons. They do it to cut cost, which lessens quality, or reduce the possibility of liability, which lessens performance.
You see it everywhere, Automobiles,Firearms,Electronics,Medicine,Toys,jewelry,even food to some degree.
The platform the AF gun provides for various modifications and ajustments for tuning and over all tinkering is a big part of what has made them so popular. Anything they do to reduce performance, versatility or quaility is not going to be good for their bottom line.
Tag,
😯 😕
So if you keep it under the full extension that would mean the valve face (behind the tophat) is being hit by the backside of the tophat when struck hard…
Were you using a heavier than stock hammer with the powerwheel cranked up? 😯
But wouldn’t a compressed valve stem give you a different reading than an uncompressed stem?
There have been other cases of stems bending after being punished by heavy hammers and lots of preload.
I wonder WHY they would change things at this point… It would appear they are trying to save money and to change things always costs money, unless it’s a matter of gaining 0.1″ of tubing over thousands of stems…
I see the value of used Condor valves going up if the newer valves are limited in power. 😉
Oh and you could also back out the valve spring retaining nut to give you more travel before the spring compresses all the way.
I do like you idea of a custom valve spring nut and spring, could actually be done to give more travel and therefore more power… I see a lathe in your future. 😆 Actually get together with Dayotat, he has one and has tons of time apparently. 😆
I have just purchased an R&L Extreme valve and need to review the issue with Randy. The Airforce valve would sit .020 proud of the tank face, while the Extreme valve screws down flush, which is a loss in total travel.
I’m thinking the best approach is to mill down the length of the spring retaining nut. Maybe I should find a spring that has more travel but same spring rate.
I’m open to easy fixes for this problem. (no lathe)
I have smashed the valve stems before on my Condor.
I have just gotten to the point that I do just as you have advised, I let the air out of the bottle and screw the top hat out all the way, mine will go to .13 and check to see if it is bottoming out.
With my RLAirgunsguns valve stem and top hat, the top hat would not go out nearly as far as the AirForce one would, and the RL top hat was the problem. I switched to the AirForce top hat to get further travel, but suspected that Randy had designed it that way to stop it from collasping the stem.
Regards.
Roachcreek
Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
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Well id bet tony checked that. Amd hell if it hasnt smashed it yet then you are proble fine. But id drain the tank and double check no sence in messing it up and costing u money for something as silly as not wanting to drain the tank. Jyst a thought