Attack of the Clones – The all new P12 Bullpup
Please guys, I will remind you that this is a world stage and this is the first time this rifle has been on show in the public eye.. This thread will be the first and only info on this bullpup until its distributed. This thread will come up on many web search engines and will be read buy thousands of potential customers and also the manufacturer. Can I please ask that you keep it on topic throughout the duration of the review.. Regards, Wingman.
There has been much talk of a Bullpup some say an EDgun clone from China yet no one has actually handled one or
in fact seen one other than a few photo-shopped factory images on the interweb..
Until now that is..
I have just taken delivery of the two very first production prototypes for testing and review purposes, one in .177 and one in .22 and for the curious minds out there Im going to completely tare these down and compare them to their European counterparts for you all and answer every question you and the manufacturer want answered..
At this stage this rifle is not available but to the public but once the manufacturer gets the required feedback on their new product and make any modifications needed they will hit production and be distributed to their representatives around the globe. You cant buy these directly from the factory unless you are a representative as they don’t deal directly with the public and they have a minimum purchase number of 100 units. Please don’t ask me what these will retail for as it will depend entirely on your location and local distributors costs and mark ups. However I can tell you it will be cheaper (much cheaper) than any other bullpup currently available on today’s market.
Will this new low priced Bullpup compete with the European bullpup market needing very few mods right out of the box?
….or will it always be an entry level rough around the edge rifle with the quality resembling a the QB series of rifle etc that the tinkerers on a budget among us will flock to and replace every part on the rifle until it no longer resembles its original form and end up with something they can never recover their cost on when they eventually get pissed off with it and sell to buy the European Gun they wished they had bough in the first place..
Here is the Factory info on this pup before I get into this..
They are made by the Snow Peak Airgun factory in Shaoxing China who are well know for making cheap springer’s, some owners have remarked that they have been of reasonable quality but I have never owned or inspected one so I will not comment.
Snow peak Airgun factory was established in 1976 and at present, the company has 10 series with more than 30 specifications of airgun products, and owns several patents. The company also cooperates with internationally well-known airgun brands, and is rich in mature OEM experiences with a strong design and R&D team, they boast a first-class quality control system and testing equipments.
PCP Rifles are a new venture for Snow peak and they are gearing up to produce two PCP rifles, the M10 which looks to be a Air Arms S400 clone and this one the P12 bullpup which will be the subject of this independent review.
This is the manufacturers specs for the P12 bullpup they have released on their website.
MODEL P12 Bullpup
Magazine capacity: Single shot
Manual safety
Available in .177 (4.5 mm), .22 (5.5 mm) calibres.
Air tube volume: 317cc
Fill pressure: 20mPA, 200 Bar, 2900Psi
Precision rifled steel barrel for accuracy.
Scope mount rail & shock absorber scope stop.
Stock: European hard wood
Over all length: 710mm (28”)
Weight 3.1kg (6.8lbs)
Max velocity: 4.5mm (.177cal) 1100fps
5.5mm (.22cal) 1100fps
Please note this will be an evolving thread with an extensive unbiased review that tests every component of these PSP’s professionally and thoroughly.
I will first test and provide data on the rifles exactly as they arrived from the factory floor and then (should I need to) I will provide a list of all defects, point out any “quirks” and improvements needed to bring them up to an international standard.
Once all testing and data collection is done going onto a section of “extensive modification and tuning” in an attempt to get this Bullpup to be “all it can be”
I have a stock of new .177 and .22 L/W and BSA match barrels should the stock barrels be less than perfect.
Where is the .25cal model I also hear you all ask? I also have two new .25cal match grade barrels, one BSA and the other Lothar Walther that will I test on this platform for all those modders out there with the burning desire for more energy..
I know there will be plenty of questions rattling around out there already but please allow me the time to finish this first section before slamming me with them as I will do my best to leave all questions unanswered in the initial review.. I will be open to all questions and suggestions once I complete this initial review and start on the field testing stage.
First up.. The un-boxing… second…the strip down and comparisons, is it actually a clone?
The boxes The P12s were shipped in were unremarkable, just the usual Chinese brown box with the stamped on black writing..
Two rifles were packed in the one box and both had the model and calibre marked on the ends.
Inside the rifles were secured in place with some high density foam, no way they could move but a sharp blow to the top of
the package could go through the two layers of cardboard and cause damage for sure. I would be nice to see a layer of foam on the top as well.
A bag of bits is taped to the inside of the box, but not well enough… the bag can sill rattle around within the box and
contact the stock.. both rifles had small dents in the lower stock caused by the metal parts in the bag..
The rifle comes shipped with an operators manual, some spare O rings, 4 Allen wrenches, a fill probe and a male foster fitting for the probe.. a nice addition for sure! Even the Allen wrenches are of good quality and Im still not sure if shipping a PCP with tools to fix it is a good thing or a bad thing.. The spare O rings are very soft and of low quality.. they would be be better replaced with some nitrile or poly 70 durometer if you can get them. The probe comes without the O rings fitted so I fitted some good quality ones from the get go..
There is a small collar on the bottom of the probe that the thicker Oring supplied fits onto sealing it inside the foster fitting. I chose to leave this out and fitted mine with a dowdy washer instead. Just a note, all the gas threads (Probe and gauge) on these guns are 1/8 NPT not 1/8 BSP.. this is the standard for most Chinese made air guns. Both rifles came shipped basically empty, there was about 5 bar in the cylinders just to keep the O rings good.
First Impressions:
The build quality of these rifles is actually really good… well better than I had expected anyway..
The bluing on the steel barrels is perfect and I can not fault it, the machining tolerances and threading etc is great.. the alloy parts have been bead blasted and anodised and I had to look pretty close to spot any machining marks at all! The alloy has a charcoal matte finish that I personally prefer for all types of air rifles.
There is a few very small blemishes in the breech on the .177 which looks like small pits but the .22 is spot on.
The finish on the cylinder is very average and it marks very easily, there is parts at the front of the cylinders on both rifles where the alloy is “grinning” through the black anodizing where it looks worn.. more on this later..
The rifles I received have been fitted with a new Weaver stile rail rather than the 11mm dovetail pictured on the Snow Peak website.. Great!
They are easy enough to cock and push the bolt home with ease! The safety mechanism is in the front of the trigger and operates like a Benjamin Marauders safety, back for safe and forward to fire. Not every one cup of tea! But better than nothing, I suppose a non-loaded rifle is better, load when ready to shoot. is the key!
The triggers were set as a two stage with a little bit of gritty creep then about a 2 lbs break.
Not perfect but I have felt worse for sure..
I filled them both and dry fired them, they are both very loud and would lean toward wearing earmuffs… yup “that loud”.. they have a shocking PING that resonates for about 5 seconds after the shot! Both guns have breach leaks from the bolt probes and the front of the breach where the barrels fit up which Im glad I found before I put my face to the action! I will sort that little issue later too..
The P12 is fitted with an integral forward mounted glow in the dark pressure gauge to keep the shooter informed of all-important residual pressure even on those night hunts..
TIP: don’t trust the pressure gauge on the P12 rifle! They are cheap and in both cases inaccurate when compared to several of my dive bottle gauges, the rifle in the pic below has exactly 200 bar in the tank tested on both my dive bottle gauges.. however, it reads 220bar on the guns manometer.
Always fill to the gauge on the dive bottle/pump not the one on the gun.
I will be replacing my cylinder gauges with good quality units in the near future.
What really grabs the eye with these new China dolls is the stock design woodwork fashioned unusually from what I’m pretty sure is is beach wood. I is much lighter in colour than the stock pictured on the Snow Peak website, It is more of a honey tone but the wood grain looks good and has no voids or knots. There is a few darker areas where they needed more sanding before the final finish was applied but it could easily be stained and refinished or repainted to the owners preference.
All Replies
Wing
We in South Africa also need a supplier. Send me the detail of the Dutch supplier if you don’t mind. Maybe we can import directly from them.
Paul
Excellent thread, this new player in the pup arena is looking better every day.
Right lets keep this thread rolling..
This review seems to have reached far and wide and got the attention of many people..
A while ago while testing the CZ Altaros reg in the P12, I was contacted by Huma-Air in Holland who makes pcp regulators for several brands.
You may know them as the Huma regulator. The Huma regulators were developed by a couple of guys in the Netherlands, one is called Huub and and the other is called Marc, so the regulators have been called Hu(ub)Ma(rc) regulators. They have developed a number of interesting parts and regulators for a range of rifles. I had never used a Huma reg before but after a quick scout around the forums and google there seems to be loads of happy users and the product looks good.
Well after a few emails back and forth with Huub discussing measurements, pressures, velocities, plenum volumes etc he has come back to me with a prototype regulator specially designed as a drop in unit for the P12 rifles..
The shiny new prototype turned up in the post today for me to test.
It is beautifully made and is exactly to the spec I asked for that I had previously fine tuned my Altaros reg and plenum to (reg spacer volume)
It is a a very small unit that threads to the plenum and breathes to the environment by removing the rear valve body O ring like the Altaros reg, so no drilling of the Titanium cylinder is necessary. I love this feature.
Alog side my modified Altaros reg you can see the Huma reg is very short and looks very much like the Crickets reg both internally and externally.
Already I see an advantage of the Huma reg over the Altaros reg and that is the precious volume of air it takes up in the P12s cylinder. Although the plenum looks longer on the Huma reg it has actually been made with the same volume as the one I made for the Altaros reg as you can see once it is screwed together.
The Altaros reg is much longer due to the internal seal and piston design also the smaller diameter Bellville washer stack.
Just to recap on what I did when tuning my .22 P12 for the Altaros reg, I made and fitted a larger transfer tube to make the most of the shorter burst of lower pressure regulated air, I also fitted a heavier hammer spring and lighter valve return spring to alter valve dwell time and shot consistency to make the most of the regs 130 bar setting.
I get 45 regulated shots with 18.13gr JSBs at 900fps with the Altaros reg but I also fill my gun to 220bar as once its regulated there is no chance of valve lock up from pressures over 200bar like you would get in its unregulated state..
To test this reg as a drop in unit I first decided to put my .22 P12 back to how it comes directly from the factory in regards to hammer/valve springs and transfer ports. This will represent the same results you can expect if you were to fit the Huma reg to a factory tuned and unmodified P12. I had Huub preset the Prototype reg to 2000PSI (138bar) as I was unsure on what pressure would be needed with the factory transfer port and hammer spring fitted to push the 18.13gr JSB to 900fps.
So after removing the Altaros Reg and fitting all the factory parts back in I put a little silicone grease on the new prototype Huma reg and fitted it to the cylinder.
After reassembling the P12 I filled it with air and checked for leaks. All good in that respect so a quick few shots over the chrony to set the hammer spring to this guns preferred 900fps I refilled to 200 bar ( the factories recommended fill pressure) and shot a full string.
Now keep in mind this is a new reg that will “run in” and eventually be a little more consistent.
200Bar = 900 913 897 902 900 906 897 904 900 900 897 916 896 906 894 911 911 901 900 898 900 900 892 906 910 896 904 899 895 897 902 901 895 900 893 880 893 873 894 901 894 887 887 889 887 125bar 884 880 885 878 870
Now although not a bad shot string, there was the odd small velocity spike and drop and the last 10 shots show that the reg is set a little too high at 138bar which I knew as the hammer spring was backed right off even with the smaller factory transfer port. The hammer spring was adjustable from approx 900 to 955fps. There was 45 shots on the reg but it fell off early at 125bar and this already shows more available cylinder volume as I only got 45 shots from the CZ Altaros Reg but that was shot between 220bar to 118 bar!
I is clear I will have to reduce the reg pressure to 130-132 bar to get the desired velocity of 900fps with the hammer spring set at a mid setting.
Just for my own interest I left the hammer spring set where it was and swapped the factory smaller transfer port with my custom high flow one to give you a better Idea of whats going on inside.
The resulting shot string was as follows:
200bar = 912 915 908 914 909 914 909 910 908 911 913 913 912 917 913 909 909 910 911 915 916 912 909 906 911 915 908 916 909 911 912 910 911 907 895 894 894 894 125bar 878 881 874
So with 38 shots before dropping off the reg at 125 bar the spread has improved a little and the larger transfer port has increased the velocity 10-15fps at the same hammer setting. The hammer spring can now be set from approx 910fps to 965 fps.
So the larger diameter transfer port gives better consistency and is a great mod if you are fitting a reg to your P12 but as you see from the strings the reg needs to be wound down to get approx 890 to 925 fps of adjustment on the hammer spring.
The way it is running now the hammer spring is regulating the regulated air so it will never be consistent or economical.
In the next couple of days I will remove the prototype reg and reduce the pressure to 130 bar and run some more strings over the chrony.
With the factory set P12 and the addition of a drop in Huma reg and larger transfer port I hope to get about 55-60 very consistent shots at 900fps av with the 18.13gr JSBs between 220 and 118bar. I will then I will relay the regulator pre-set pressure information to Huub so he can mass produce these regs for all you die hard P12 fans..
I have given Huub Mrod Air’s contact details so the American customers will be able to purchase one of these drop in P12 Huma regs from Mike.
European customers can contact Huub directly and Ill edit this post with his details once I get the ok from him.
I believe Mike at Mrod Air is also manufacturing the larger transfer ports too if you don’t want to drill out your factory one.
Stay “tuned” for my next tuning session as I get this lovely piece of Dutch engineering to cooperate with my needs..
As time permits I will make some more vids on the P12 in regards to tuning and fitting the reg etc.
I also need to change the scope so I can fit the scope camera and show you some mind blowing 200 yard accuracy..
Unfortunately my scope cams don’t fit on the current setup so I missed out on sharing with you some amazing long lange kill shots on some very small targets.. more to come..
In the meantime here is some light reading for all you newbies that keep emailing me asking what a regulator does and why I fitted it to the P12..
What is a regulator?
A regulator is a device that regulates the pressure between the air cylinder/bottle and the firing valve. It allows air to to flow through to the action until it reaches a pre-set pressure and then it shuts off the air until a shot is fired, creating a constant pressure at the firing valve. When the rifle is fired this pressure drops then the regulator opens to allow the air to flow through to the firing valve again until it reaches the pre-set pressure. By fitting a regulator you eliminate the power curve and the hunt for the sweet spot that is common with most unregulated rifles.
Where does the regulator get fitted?
It is fitted in between the air reservoir/cylinder and the firing valve. The regulator has been designed as a drop in unit, this means that the P12 does not need to be modified when fitting the regulator, so less chance of leaks etc. It also means that it is possible to put the rifle back to standard without having to replace a number of expensive parts.
Hi
A few groups,with the P12 in Spain,weather conditions are not good for testing,very very wind.But ,the Spa P12 is a good airrifle,price vs quality ….
http://antac.mforos.com/1616462/11295849-primeros-grupos-con-el-spa-12/
Conditions for testing are very very bad,but the groups,in this conditions are very good.
Paul
Yes std 20mm rail.
12×1.25mm
Hey wingman what size threads does the barrel have on the end…. ? i looked through this but i didnt find it.
We are still waiting on our shipment…. but I’m sure wingman can answer. I take it you don’t have one yet?
Question to the people that have hands on P12’s already. Am I correct to say that the weaver rail for scope is a 20 mm rail.
Paul
I’ve enjoyed hearing about the updated items and such that are going to be available and it has me really excited to get my hands on my pre-order. So the marketing has been appreciated but I really look forward to some more of your great updates Wingman. You sold me on this purchase and I’m sure I’m going to love it!
your Wingman special sold out. There must be a lot of orders.
Both P12s are still performing great without any further issues and the .177cal P12 is cleaning up in the HF/T scene \ :8:
They are both getting plenty of use on a daily basis and the .22 is slaying plenty of pest birds out to 130 meters consistently.
I have just spoken with Snow Peak and my packages will be with me shortly. Both S/P and myself have been a little busy lately but I will get on to this project again shortly. This Thread has quickly started looking like a giant sales pitch rather than a review but I will have it back on track asap with a new drop in reg to test, some drop in suppressor baffels to put through their paces and a .25cal prototype to reveal. Stay tuned… :whistle:
S/P insured me the highlighted P12 problems have been fixed and after they are done testing the new prototypes they will soon go into full production.
Hey wingman you have how’s them p12 ‘a doing over there in NZ? Have you got your care package yet?
with more and more videos popping up… these p12’s are evolving .. looking like the other .22s are no different than yours wingy. 😀
Well I still remember the times when the “Far East” world was dreaming about the “Western” world products :fishinghole:
Seems so “Far Away” world now :rofl:
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Did you change out the Snow Peak barrel for the L/W barrel on .22 cal? Thank you for all your hard work and feeding my addiction. 😆