Attack of the Clones – The all new P12 Bullpup
Please guys, I will remind you that this is a world stage and this is the first time this rifle has been on show in the public eye.. This thread will be the first and only info on this bullpup until its distributed. This thread will come up on many web search engines and will be read buy thousands of potential customers and also the manufacturer. Can I please ask that you keep it on topic throughout the duration of the review.. Regards, Wingman.
There has been much talk of a Bullpup some say an EDgun clone from China yet no one has actually handled one or
in fact seen one other than a few photo-shopped factory images on the interweb..
Until now that is..
I have just taken delivery of the two very first production prototypes for testing and review purposes, one in .177 and one in .22 and for the curious minds out there Im going to completely tare these down and compare them to their European counterparts for you all and answer every question you and the manufacturer want answered..
At this stage this rifle is not available but to the public but once the manufacturer gets the required feedback on their new product and make any modifications needed they will hit production and be distributed to their representatives around the globe. You cant buy these directly from the factory unless you are a representative as they don’t deal directly with the public and they have a minimum purchase number of 100 units. Please don’t ask me what these will retail for as it will depend entirely on your location and local distributors costs and mark ups. However I can tell you it will be cheaper (much cheaper) than any other bullpup currently available on today’s market.
Will this new low priced Bullpup compete with the European bullpup market needing very few mods right out of the box?
….or will it always be an entry level rough around the edge rifle with the quality resembling a the QB series of rifle etc that the tinkerers on a budget among us will flock to and replace every part on the rifle until it no longer resembles its original form and end up with something they can never recover their cost on when they eventually get pissed off with it and sell to buy the European Gun they wished they had bough in the first place..
Here is the Factory info on this pup before I get into this..
They are made by the Snow Peak Airgun factory in Shaoxing China who are well know for making cheap springer’s, some owners have remarked that they have been of reasonable quality but I have never owned or inspected one so I will not comment.
Snow peak Airgun factory was established in 1976 and at present, the company has 10 series with more than 30 specifications of airgun products, and owns several patents. The company also cooperates with internationally well-known airgun brands, and is rich in mature OEM experiences with a strong design and R&D team, they boast a first-class quality control system and testing equipments.
PCP Rifles are a new venture for Snow peak and they are gearing up to produce two PCP rifles, the M10 which looks to be a Air Arms S400 clone and this one the P12 bullpup which will be the subject of this independent review.
This is the manufacturers specs for the P12 bullpup they have released on their website.
MODEL P12 Bullpup
Magazine capacity: Single shot
Manual safety
Available in .177 (4.5 mm), .22 (5.5 mm) calibres.
Air tube volume: 317cc
Fill pressure: 20mPA, 200 Bar, 2900Psi
Precision rifled steel barrel for accuracy.
Scope mount rail & shock absorber scope stop.
Stock: European hard wood
Over all length: 710mm (28”)
Weight 3.1kg (6.8lbs)
Max velocity: 4.5mm (.177cal) 1100fps
5.5mm (.22cal) 1100fps
Please note this will be an evolving thread with an extensive unbiased review that tests every component of these PSP’s professionally and thoroughly.
I will first test and provide data on the rifles exactly as they arrived from the factory floor and then (should I need to) I will provide a list of all defects, point out any “quirks” and improvements needed to bring them up to an international standard.
Once all testing and data collection is done going onto a section of “extensive modification and tuning” in an attempt to get this Bullpup to be “all it can be”
I have a stock of new .177 and .22 L/W and BSA match barrels should the stock barrels be less than perfect.
Where is the .25cal model I also hear you all ask? I also have two new .25cal match grade barrels, one BSA and the other Lothar Walther that will I test on this platform for all those modders out there with the burning desire for more energy..
I know there will be plenty of questions rattling around out there already but please allow me the time to finish this first section before slamming me with them as I will do my best to leave all questions unanswered in the initial review.. I will be open to all questions and suggestions once I complete this initial review and start on the field testing stage.
First up.. The un-boxing… second…the strip down and comparisons, is it actually a clone?
The boxes The P12s were shipped in were unremarkable, just the usual Chinese brown box with the stamped on black writing..
Two rifles were packed in the one box and both had the model and calibre marked on the ends.
Inside the rifles were secured in place with some high density foam, no way they could move but a sharp blow to the top of
the package could go through the two layers of cardboard and cause damage for sure. I would be nice to see a layer of foam on the top as well.
A bag of bits is taped to the inside of the box, but not well enough… the bag can sill rattle around within the box and
contact the stock.. both rifles had small dents in the lower stock caused by the metal parts in the bag..
The rifle comes shipped with an operators manual, some spare O rings, 4 Allen wrenches, a fill probe and a male foster fitting for the probe.. a nice addition for sure! Even the Allen wrenches are of good quality and Im still not sure if shipping a PCP with tools to fix it is a good thing or a bad thing.. The spare O rings are very soft and of low quality.. they would be be better replaced with some nitrile or poly 70 durometer if you can get them. The probe comes without the O rings fitted so I fitted some good quality ones from the get go..
There is a small collar on the bottom of the probe that the thicker Oring supplied fits onto sealing it inside the foster fitting. I chose to leave this out and fitted mine with a dowdy washer instead. Just a note, all the gas threads (Probe and gauge) on these guns are 1/8 NPT not 1/8 BSP.. this is the standard for most Chinese made air guns. Both rifles came shipped basically empty, there was about 5 bar in the cylinders just to keep the O rings good.
First Impressions:
The build quality of these rifles is actually really good… well better than I had expected anyway..
The bluing on the steel barrels is perfect and I can not fault it, the machining tolerances and threading etc is great.. the alloy parts have been bead blasted and anodised and I had to look pretty close to spot any machining marks at all! The alloy has a charcoal matte finish that I personally prefer for all types of air rifles.
There is a few very small blemishes in the breech on the .177 which looks like small pits but the .22 is spot on.
The finish on the cylinder is very average and it marks very easily, there is parts at the front of the cylinders on both rifles where the alloy is “grinning” through the black anodizing where it looks worn.. more on this later..
The rifles I received have been fitted with a new Weaver stile rail rather than the 11mm dovetail pictured on the Snow Peak website.. Great!
They are easy enough to cock and push the bolt home with ease! The safety mechanism is in the front of the trigger and operates like a Benjamin Marauders safety, back for safe and forward to fire. Not every one cup of tea! But better than nothing, I suppose a non-loaded rifle is better, load when ready to shoot. is the key!
The triggers were set as a two stage with a little bit of gritty creep then about a 2 lbs break.
Not perfect but I have felt worse for sure..
I filled them both and dry fired them, they are both very loud and would lean toward wearing earmuffs… yup “that loud”.. they have a shocking PING that resonates for about 5 seconds after the shot! Both guns have breach leaks from the bolt probes and the front of the breach where the barrels fit up which Im glad I found before I put my face to the action! I will sort that little issue later too..
The P12 is fitted with an integral forward mounted glow in the dark pressure gauge to keep the shooter informed of all-important residual pressure even on those night hunts..
TIP: don’t trust the pressure gauge on the P12 rifle! They are cheap and in both cases inaccurate when compared to several of my dive bottle gauges, the rifle in the pic below has exactly 200 bar in the tank tested on both my dive bottle gauges.. however, it reads 220bar on the guns manometer.
Always fill to the gauge on the dive bottle/pump not the one on the gun.
I will be replacing my cylinder gauges with good quality units in the near future.
What really grabs the eye with these new China dolls is the stock design woodwork fashioned unusually from what I’m pretty sure is is beach wood. I is much lighter in colour than the stock pictured on the Snow Peak website, It is more of a honey tone but the wood grain looks good and has no voids or knots. There is a few darker areas where they needed more sanding before the final finish was applied but it could easily be stained and refinished or repainted to the owners preference.
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Im flattered but yes I am married and my wife wont let me have any more pets… :whistle:
I think he´s married and thus spoken for … 😯
Damn you Wingman! You are starting to make me drool!
No… that is the hole that has caused the jamming on the .177 cal.. That is the one I have just bushed to an 1/8″ the same port size as the plastic tube that fits in that recess. It came from the factory with the same size hole as the .22cal (which is 4.5mm). That pic was taken after I have modified it.
I hope Snow Peak actions this change in port size in the .177 or there will be a whole lot of very problematic .177s out there very soon..
That port would be big enough for a .25cal conversion if you just open up the plastic transfer tube to match.
You had said:
The hole that would be above the transfer port (the one drilled into the bolt housing) looks bigger on the 22… If you converted the 177 to 22 that hole would have to be drilled out! :winkn:
This photo.
looks like with some tinkering you got your self a nice gun!
Go Hurricane’s! Fly like a wind.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2. This POS iPhone sucks though …
I picked up all the O rings I needed plus plenty of spares and proceeded to strip clean, fit and re-lube the new O rings and with a bit of trial and error I have sealed all the leaks! The metric O ring fitted to the .22 pellet probe was well under sized and was the biggest cause of the leak.. there was no metric size available that would do the job so I have used and imperial O ring and the leak has gone.
Both guns much quieter and a pleasure to shoot now, other than the “ping” these rifles have they sounds good!
I fitted some much harder 90 durometer O rings to the barrel to action seal as the factory ones just kept blowing out.. they have both just had about 100 pellets through them and the new O rings are still in place. All the factory fitted O rings are just too soft.
I would have to say this is the easiest PCP I have ever worked on, all you need is the 4 Allen wrenches that come with the gun and a large flat bladed screwdriver to adjust the HST.
Every thing is hand tight and nothing was seized. All the treading is good quality and spins freely without any binding. I reckon I could strip this entire PCP down in less than two minutes to change every O ring in it.
The only thing that really needs doing when you first remove the cylinders end plugs is to clean all the factory gunky grease off those threads and inside the cylinder because it sets hard.
Another feature I really like is the fact that you can just loosen the gauge on the front by hand to purge the cylinder of air before stripping..
Heres a list of all the O ring sizes you will need to switch out the soft factory silicone O rings.
Note: I have fitted all Nitrile 70 durometer apart from the barrel to breech O rings which are the harder Nitrile 90 durometer.
Valve and front plug: x2 23mm x 3mm N70
Suppressor defuser: x1 19mm x 2mm N70
.177 Barrel to action: x1 5mm x 1.5mm N90
.22 Barrel to action: x1 6mm x 1.5mm N90
Fill valve: x1 3mm x 1.5mm N70
Transfer port: x2 7mm x 1.5mm N70
Filling probe: x2 6mm x 1.5mm N70
Gauge: x1 10mm x 2mm N70
.177 Bolt Probe: x1 2.5mm x 1.2mm N70
.22 Bolt Probe: x1 1/8″ x 1/16″ N70 006 Imperial *New Updated double O ring probe 3mm x 1.5mm N70
So with the leaks sealed I did some more chrony work which Ill type up when I get a moment..
here’s a couple of other brands of pellets I tried through the .22cal at 50 yards:
Polly mags at 890 fps av 5 shots
Hurricanes at 930fps av 10 shots
Im not sure exactly where you mean but you are refering to the loading port the probe pushes the pellet through into the barrel then yes it is smaller.. the .177 is 5mm dia and the .22 is 6mm. If I make a .25cal conversion I will drill this hole and make a probe to suit at about 6.9mm
The hole in the breech of the 177 just above the transfer port looks smaller than the 22?
Yup a .25 barrel transplant will be as simple as turning a new bolt probe, opening up the plastic transfer port and opening up the front of the breach for the larger pellet.. the factory valve and port sizes will be ample.
Wing your doing a kick ass job exposing these china dolls!!!! They look promising.
Now that it seems you are more familiar with the barrels and transfer ports. Will this platform be a good candidate for a .25 caliber ? Is it to earlier to tell?
With that shooting string u put out earlier and the condition of the guns. It looks really promising and can’t wait to see what a proper working P12 will do in stock form (other than then your tweaks to seal it and fix port). Basicly how an end user should get one.
Keep it up wingman. This is. GREAT!!!!! :8:
I also dragged the .22 out tonight only to find that the cylinder was completely empty..
200 bar has leaked out in 10 hours.. 🙄 good thing Im off to stock up on O rings tomorrow.. I will strip both guns and change out the whole lot… 😕
It will also give me the chance to measure up the Cylinder internal dimensions for my new Czech Republican Altaros Regulator :8: (to be fitted much later 😉 )
Well the first and second manufacturing fault has reared their ugly heads.. first of all with the .177cal, I found the cause of the pellet jams…
The pellet was not getting damaged in the missing O ring void like I had first thought at all, I removed the action and manually fed a few pellets through it just pushing them out onto my desk.. every one I tried came out with a slice off one side.. Under closer inspection I found this:
The pellets head was dropping into what seems a massive transfer port and slicing into it as it passed..
I measured the port at 4.5mm! The .002mm smaller than a .177 pellets head!
It is the same size as the .22s transfer port so Im guessing there was a hickup on the CNC machine or with the guy driving it.
The hole in the .177s plastic transfer tube is 2.8mm, the hole into the breech should be basically the same!
I have forwarded this information onto the S/P engineers requesting a new breech and am awaiting a reply… now this will be a good test of their back up service..
The .177 and .22 P12s are almost Identical, the only difference between the .22 and .177cal is the little plastic transfer tubes orifice size, the barrels and the bolt probe size. Everything else is the same including valves etc.
In the mean time I have repaired this breech so that I can continue the review.. :ugeekn:
I turned down some 6061 T6 alloy 1/4″ tube to 4.55mm with an 1/8″ (3mm “ish”)internal hole diameter and pressed it into the oversized port. I then machined it flush again and re drilled the 5mm hole for the bolt probe to pass through.. with a bit of polishing and some aluminium black touch up it looks just like it should have always looked..
The .177 pellets now pass right over the 1/8″ hole without tipping forward and getting sliced or jammed…
What I dont understand is how this was not picked up by Snow Peaks I quote from their website “first-class quality control system and testing equipments”
With the amount of pellets that had obviously put through this particular rifle before it was sent to me I find it hard to believe this was not picked up :butkick: ❓
However I took a close look at the pellet probes O rings while they were apart and the tolerances here were not flash either..
With the bolt in the closed position there is enough play in both bolts to see daylight around the O rings when looking in from where the barrel fits up 😯
They will never seal in this state! Im hoping I will find some larger diameter and harder compound O rings for both probes that will seal these breech’s but if I cant I will have to resort to cutting the O ring grooves in the probes to the correct dimensions for a larger O ring. I will also cut a second groove on the lathe to fit a second O ring.
In the pics below I have marked the probe at the points that plunge into the breech and there is clearly enough room to fit a second O ring on them both.
I will test them with a single O ring first and list the correct O ring sizes if they is successfully seal the breech’s but I will be adding a second O ring to these guns regardless as Im not a fan of having my eyelids turned inside out every time I pull the trigger of a P12! 😯
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Well pet this, Chicken-Wing, many Earth cycles ago, a forum member named Mamcrackin the Wiseguy found that by cutting a piece of silicone tubing into a length of 4″, or so, that the silicone tube, if it were roughly the same diameter as the air tube, could be silicone greased, and slid half way down the gullet of the pressure tube, where it would hold itself in place, and do no harm. (Attn Slackers: Be certain to empty the pressure tube first!)
While lesser minds may ponder this statement for prolonged periods, those among us possessing superior talent immediately realize the tubing is pressing against the pcp’s air cylinder walls with enough force to stop the vibration of the tube, caused by the hammer slap, and thus stop “Ping” dead in it’s tracks.
Speaking for all forum members, World-wide, I can find no reason for you not to drop whatever you are currently doing, rush to your nearest Kiwi-mart, and purchase a short length of proper diameter silicone tubing to test this fix on the P12.
If it indeed is “Ping” within the rifle, and not a malformation of your skull, the results should be immediate and quite effective.
Kindest regards….your humble and obedient servant…
Uncle Hoot:
Addendum from memory on Ping reduction: The tube should be slit lengthwise, all the way. Folded in on itself, it should slide past any obstacle before it unfolds and achieves it’s effect.
If that doesn’t work, I suggest using a slightly smaller diameter, but longer, piece of silicone to achieve the de-vibrating effect. The longer piece will have a curve in it that will touch the walls, and it doesn’t take up that much space in the tube.
Removal is taking a clothes hanger wire, bending a small hook on the end and remove the end cap, slice the wire down past the edge of the tubing and “hook” the end and pull it right out. It pays to silicone grease the tube before use.
Also, after a year or two, the silicone tubing turns white and looses it’s “flex” and stops working.
There used to be an aluminum piece, with two large O-rings at each end that applied the same pressure against the walls and lasted forever. You can probably make one of these if you can use a dremel or milling tool to cut shallow grooves into each end of the aluminum pipe insert to hold the O-rings.
“May the farce be with you…” MGM circa 1975