Bolt pull strength
Hi Guys,
Do any of you have any idea how many lbs of force it takes to move and lock a bolt on a talon/condor?
As I have yet to get my fill adapter, I’m stuck playing with an unfireable gun. Naturally, I’ve gone in the “lets see what we can do about making this this a repeater” direction.
I’ve got a spare arduino and the tri-rail provides a pretty good base to mount gadgets close enough to the bolt-action. I want to start with an automatic breech open-close mechanism, then move onto the pellet feeding and trigger/shot detection mechanism and logic.
I ask because its time to order servos for the job, and I’d like to size them appropriately.
Cheers,
-D
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Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
Thanks for the L&C airgun links, I’ll definitely do my homework on the Girandoni.
Check this solenoid out:
http://www.cleanairpower.com/admin/pdf/VC-SolenoidValve-Spec050125%20update%20Nov08.pdf
screw-in, 2 way, normally closed, 3000 psi, fast enough to open and close 200 times per second.
If I could rig one of these to the AF tank in a way that would still allow me to mate the solenoid with the breech, then it would only be the simple matter of working the electronics for timing.
not sure how the Crosman Evalve is actuated but unless you couple that selenoid with some serious mass in the form of a hammer you will need one massive selenoid if its knocking the valve stem on its own
you can get around some of the mass if the stem is being cammed rather than knocked
if one wants something electronic me thinks one should find out how the Evalve works then reverse engineer it for this type of application
I like the idea of replacing the hammer valve with an electronic one and using the slide area to mount a rotary actuator to position a linear magazine precisely for each shot. I figure a super precise and high dollar mechanism could minimize the effects of the pellet being fired from the magazine vice properly seated in the bore or lede. ….Minimize but not eliminate… I like the idea even better if it holds at least a 7 ring!
FairlyInconspicuous,
Take a look at these videos about the 22-23 shot 46 caliber Girandoni air rifle:
I think a ammo tube inside the frame on each side of the barrel with 2 position loading block would only have to slide maybe 3/4″. A small servo could be geared to move the block back and forth. The full length ammo tubes could be halfway loaded with maybe 15-20 pellets followed by a long light spring so it would reload even pointed down. The pellet carrier block would have a caming action to prevent next pellet jams. The mechanism would clamp on the breech end of the barrel and also the ammo tubes. There would easily be room for a short spring loaded firing cam run by another high torque servo or a selenoid encasing the top hat and valve stem. The air tank and valve would be essentially identical or improved. The hammer, spring & power wheel would be eliminated.
woohoo, exciting brainstormage!
Digital calipers on order, solidworks being installed as we speak.
In my opinion, the whole spring driven hammer and impact driven valve are in direct opposition to semi auto goodness.
I’m going to start by playing with a drop in replacement for the mechanical valve. One high speed solenoid can be set to respond to the hammer’s impact via inexpensive microswitch, keeping gun operation identical to stock. Air release timings can be fine tuned to the limits of the solenoid’s open/close speed which would mean way easier tuning and experimentation (not to mention tank by tank consistency, as I’ve heard that no two tanks behave in the same way. I accredit this to the naturally “organic” variables involved in springs moving weights hitting valves that have actuation levels that vary with air pressure).
I just want to see what happens if air release is controlled electronically. When and if that’s done, if it works, a feed mechanism can be put on the list. I’m not opposed to the revolver mechanism, especially if the entire assembly doesn’t have to rotate AND be driven backwards by a hammer impact in order to drive the valve. (though I fantasize about a belt driven system, 20-30 pellets, plus 2 and 3 round burst via fire selector.)
Unless the entire gun action can be driven via the mechanical energy in a trigger pull, I don’t see how this platform could operate in semi auto without needing a completely reworked set of valves, mechanicals, and frame.
I haven’t shot a single pellet through this gun and I’m already moving on the semi-auto pipe dream. I think I made the right choice, this is a good community.
been tossing over the idea for over a year
not so much a magazine feed conversion for the AF frame {something I think is mostly unworkable} but rather a way to utilize an AF type of valve with a rear tank layout in a whole new magazine fed big bore breech/frame.
the main issue is the format of the AF design with its forward sliding breech…as others noted it doesn’t lend itself to a magazine, moreover, to fit a feed mech you have to position it forward of the breech/hammer/spring
can only see one option and that being a spring driven, cam actuated top hat. Cocking via a thumb lever ala SIG226 hammer drop lever and a Spring wound drum similar to that on the FN303 or Street Sweeper that automatically advances when the cam cocking lever is depressed.
cam mass would have to be of a reasonably high order with a multi lever design to the cocking linkage to allow ease of depressing the lever.
Trigger group could be a simple 2 lever design
you still have the take down aspect as well as the ability to readily swap out tanks
further such an action could be extremely compact while capable of a decent detachable magazine capacity mounted UNDERNEATH the action where it belongs rather than from above in the line of sight
you can also dispense with the retarded AF barrel mounting opting instead for a barrel locking ring for a free floated barrel like that in a match AR that would be readily removable.
just some ideas
not much on servo ran guns
thing is other than the tank itself, EVERYHING would pretty well need to be custom tooled
one might be able to adapt a FN303 drum or even re-engineer a 9mm Suomi/Swede K drum
How about a sideways sliding breech like the Girandoni rifle that Lewis & Clark used exploring the NW Passage?
Possibly fed from 2 ammo tubes, one on each side. Breech slide driven back and forth by a hand cranked wheel that also cocks and releases the hammer.
Jerry’s 6 rings might work well in the 2 ammo feeder tubes.
Just think about it…ROUNDS PER SECOND ❗ 💡 😈 😯
Sorry, I was just messing with you about the burmuda triangle thing. By all means give it a go. Being able to modify is part of what makes these AF guns so much fun.
…
Quite frankly, the design of the talon/condor rifles does not lend itself to becoming a good repeater.
The only design anybody has claimed to have made basically turns the rifle into a revolver. The tophat is pressed against a rotary magazine and the magazine is pressed against the barrel. When fired, the pellet jumps into the barrel.
Myself, I wouldn’t even try to build a repeater on this platform even if I had the skill.
Very unlikely any design that could work would be hard to seal, and getting the magazine to align with the barrel perfectly would be nothing short of genius. And thats exactly what it would take to make it work well.
Damn! Anyone care to elaborate on this bermuda triangle?
From initial brainstorming I have a feeling that the entire “spring driven hammer impacting the valve” system would need to be gutted, most likely with an electronically controlled solenoid valve.
This would allow for a feed mechanism to occupy the space currently taken by the entire hammer assembly, allow for super accurate valve timing control, and make the gun cycling procedure less costly energy wise.
Possible cons would be the fact that the entire trigger and safety would have to be scrapped, but from what I’ve read on these boards, that wouldn’t be too big of a loss, also, now you need a battery to be able to shoot.
I’m not too hot on making the system battery dependent…
Maybe the its the bermuda triangle of demotivation?
Be very careful about trying to make a Condor or Talon into a repeater. All who have tried have suddenly disappeared never to be heard from again 😯 Its kind of the Burmuda Triangle of the airgun world.
Tag,
Hoooo boy, thats gonna be one spendy servo.
Thanks.
Well the spring is 4″ x .970″ x .062″ and 7.5 coils which makes it about 4.1 lbf. The Powerwheel has 2 3/8″ of preload on the spring at 0/0. One revolution of the powerwheel is a movement of 1/16″.
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Now that I’ve spent more time mulling this over I can see there are definite problems with turning the talon platform into a repeater.
friggin breech and valve design has given me a headache in trying to figure out how to add a moving magazine and still keep a seal without having more moving parts than a transformer.
I can do the solenoid valve easy, but feeding pellets to this design looks like a brick wall to me at this point.