bullet sizing?
I have a friend that has a .258 diameter bullet mold, it makes around a 71 grain flat nose bullet. My question is will i be able to size them down to .251 for the condor? I would be using soft lead from old roof flashings I have like 40 pounds to use up. I plan on someday going to 257 cal barrel but it is out there awhile for right now.
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Slugged my barrel today came out .254 mid barrel length I didnt check the choke diameter. now I just need to find a mold and sizing die for it.
Steve,
I tried one or two of the tumble lube molds from Lee, but like I have said here and other places, I just don’t care for Lee molds or any of their other equipment,
With the exception of the Lee bullet sizing dies.
Worst case senerio I ever had with Lee stuff was my first 45-70. I bought a Lee 500 grain mold and a set of Lee sizing dies, the bullet seating die from Lee did not have enough adjustment to seat their bullet, their very own bullet.
I had two of their primer tools at once, and owned perhaps 10 of them prior to that, when they broke I would buy another, then I thought, why not get two and have one in route for the warrantee at all times. I did that for about 4 or 5 years until I bought another primer seating tool that took regular shell holders.
Last Lee mold I had I for myself, I did buy one for my kid also so it was not my last purchased, was a 6 cavity 25 ACP mold designed by RanchDog, it was a marvalous 56 grain SWC tumble lube that was supposed to drop at .256 for my .255 LW barrel.
I waited for four months for that mold and it dropped perfect bullets at way to big to use .262. Ranchdog refunded my money.
Never again.
Even their bullet sizing dies are a different size each time they make them, Myself and Tofazfou and RJ Porter each own a Lee .258, and each one is a different size. But the design is simple and genious.
RC
I’m going to have to study on that ogive thing for a while. 😉
The wider lube grooves are for pan lubing, or the Lyman lubrisizer system?
Is either one more accurate, or are we not shooting these pistol bullets far enough to notice?
Thanks, RC
What he said…kind…close enough!
Seriously, I think RC is right about the rings on your example being there to hold lube. I never said that the only reason to ever put rings on a slug was to make loading easier, that’s just why Gary did it designing the ring slugs. There’s also a reason the rings start near the nose of the slug but I’m done yapping about slug design!
Steve,
The small thin rings are for tumble lubing with Lee Alox in the red container the sizing dies come in. The sizing dies come with a bottle of the Lee Alox lube for this purpose.
Now bullet orgive. Orgive means the distance that it takes a bullet nose to reach its apex in regards to the diameter of the bullet.
I hope I wrote that correctly.
So a 308 bullet nose would reach its point with in .308 distance to be one orgive, a 2 orgive bullet would be twice that amount, so a one orgive bullet is one half of a hemispherical dome.
Now one or two orgive bullets would primaily be handgun bullets because they would be blunt, Rifle bullets are usually rated from 4 to 10 with the most common being 6.
So what this would mean on a rifle bullet is that once the curve starts, it would end in a length equal to 6 bullet diameters.
Roughly speaking and I am pulling this out of my ass by guessing because I have not measured it, but 45 cal round ball is probably a one orgive bullet where the 9mm Parbellum full patch would be a 2 orgive bullet and your M1 carbine military full patch would be some where around a 3 to a 4 orgive shape. A M80 ball I would guess at around a 6 orgive bullet shape.
It gets more complicated with a lot of math from there when you get into tangent and secant orgives, but a rule of thumb is if the nose of a rifle bullet looks very streamlined and rocket like it is a Secant Orgive.
RC
This is for education only. I am not going to buy this mold, or use this type of bullet in an airgun.
This bullet design has fine rings. What is the purpose for such fine rings for bullets that are to be loaded into a powder burner cartridge?
What is the distinction between 1 ogive and 2 ogive radius?
Here’s another:
Thanks guys.
First of all, my sons bring enough teenage girls home that any desire to be in their presence has left! Yeesh!
Everything I’ve read on this thread is accurate as far as I’m concerned, lots of solid advice that, if heeded, will avoid the reader from having to learn lessons already provided.
One of the design criteria for the ring slugs was that they would be compatible with barrels that did not have ledes cut. That is the reason they are “ring” slugs. The individual rings are small enough that the shooter can press them into the bore and do the work of deforming the slug to fit the grooves and lands. While they will work far more comfortably with a barrel with a lede, they were designed for the guys that didn’t have that advantage and would probably only use the slugs on limited occasions when they dialed up to their highest power for hunting or just smashing stuff up for fun.
Lee and the other mold makers/bullet designers are not interested in that tiny little market niche. They are making bullet molds for guys that fit the slug into the bore with the mechanical advantage of powder detonating.
Ledes are very important for accuracy, not just ease of loading or chambering for the PB crowd. For best accuracy, the lede needs to be a light but proper fit on the slug and the proper length. Cut a .258 lede in a barrel and load a .251 slug for the .251 groove and you will not get the best result. That slug will be laying there off center from the bore until you shoot. Cut the lede too deep and the slug will be going mach 1 when it hits the “sizing die.”
All of my Barnes guns have ledes cut for dedicated ammo. When I shoot a shorter rond in a gun designed for a specific round, I may use a “seating tool” to compensate for a round too short for the lede. For longer than lede slugs, I will realize that the bolt will have to do some of the bullet deformation.
In any case, for .25s, the ring slugs allow “unchambered” guns to be loaded with less dificulty than the wide drive band bullets on the market while providing enough groove contact to compensate for imperfect loading technique. These slugs are not the result of a design study that called out for the most accurate projectile from a perfect gun. The slugs are a product of a design study that called for a compromise between the ability to load and shoot well from guns that guys here have and were over powering their ammo choices.
You can absolutely cast better ammo for any particular gun and you should if you can! It’s a great part of the hobby. Just be sure you understand the variables going in and then finding the best projectile and size and lede etc will be a joy instead of a frustration.
Steve,
Unless your wanting a dedicted slug platform and perhaps already a bullet caster, Jerry’s slugs are a simple and effective option.
Just don’t let Jerry hand deliver to your home if you have teenage daughters. 😛
RC
I didnt realize there was so much to it thanks for the information I may just go ahead and scrap the idea of a molding my own.
Great read RC, I’m considering putting an 18″ barrel on my talon p and your advice will really help.
Steve,
Even if you size the slug to your groove diameter, you will still need to cut a lead in the barrel, if you don’t you will simply not get the bullet in the barrel.
Your dealing with two diameters on that LW barrel, the groove diameter in the first 23 inches, if it is a 24 inch and that last inch of choke.
My barrel was .255 until it got to the choke and then it was .251. While this works well with pellets, seldom does it work for cast bulets.
I screwed with the LW barrel for about 50 lbs worth of bullets, then cut off the choke with a dremel cut off wheel while turning the barrel in a jig with a drill motor.
Once I cut off the choke good things started happening fast as far as accuracy.
I then did this to a 18 inch LW barrel with the same improvement.
So to recap:
You need to slug your barrel from breech to about center, then drive the slug back out the breech to avoid the choke.
You need to order from Lee Precision a custom sizing die that matches the largest diameter of that slug measurement. The Lee sizing die is meant to be used in a reloading press.
You need to cut off that choke and toss it. Then recrown the barrel.
You need to cut a lead in the breech end of the barrel so you can chamber a bullet, a craytex bulb like the ones sold by Midway or Brownells will work fine.
After you do this you can still shoot pellets, but you must push them in past the lead you cut.
If by chance your barrel measures .253, I have a Lee sizing die I will sell you.
But be aware that most Lyman 257420 molds and practically all 258 molds drop bullets around .260 diameter or larger, so you might need two sizing steps to get to the groove diameter of your LW barrel, I sized first to .258 then to .255 for mine and used Imperial sizing wax to do it.
All in all your better off getting a TJ barrel and having it fitted. You can make a LW work but as you see it is a ton of prep to get there.
The quickest alternative is to forget you buddies mold and buy a sack of Jerry’s slugs, most likely they will shoot fine in yur Condor the way it is now.
Regards,
Roachcreek
SteveB,
U have asked the right question at the right place.
To answer your question, a golden rule of sizing is to NOT size MORE THAN .005″. You are wanting to size down .007″. I honestly don’t size past .003″ as my own “GOLD STANDARD” rule of thumb.
As most are gonna tell you, “SLUG” your current bore. You are saying .251 but we don’t really know the true size. LW is known to have .253 and .254 bores for a “.251″ bore. If this is the case, you can safely size down .003 or .004”.
The 1st thing you always wanna do is “SLUG” your bore to get a true dimension. I can’t say this enough.
Roach Creek or Unrepenentsinner had this EXACT situation with his LW 251 barrel. His barrel was actually like .254 or something. His 17″ gun now groups at MOA at 150 yards cause he slugged his bore and found what size bullets he trully needed.
Also, LEE makes “CUSTOM” sizer dies. So name the size up to 50 cal and your good.
http://leeprecision.com/
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SteveB,
wwwlLeePrecision.com, scroll down to the custom shop and give them a call, they can make you a sizer die for $35.00 and 6 weeks wait.
Now another option is LBT bullet molds, Veral has been making two diameter bullet molds, the front band is bore diameter and the base is groove diameter.
Before you buy one tho, buy some bullets from Subsonnic, not our subsonnic here on the TAG, but subsonnic on the Adventurers site.
He is in Montana and has been selling two diameter LBT bullets, I have not seen and have requested from some who use them some groups, but they have not been posted. Doesn’t mean they don’t shoot well, perhaps the buyers of the bullets have other things going on in life.
But give them a try before you order a mold, if they work, you don’t need a sizer die and you may not need to cut a lead in your barrel, just give Veral at LBT your groove diameter and he will fix you up with a mold for about the price of a off the shelf RCBS mold, but try them first from Subsonnic.
SteveinLA,
An answer to your question about how accurate the conventional lubed bullets can be.
I competed in SASS for a few years, even won the State Blackpowder cartridge division one year.
I had a Marlin 45 colt Cowboy rifle that came with conventional rifling. With smokeless loads that I shot in practice because I did not need to clean as throughly as I did with BP, I mounted a Leupold scope, what else would you expect me to use, and routinely shot ground squirrels out to 250 yards with the Lyman 255 grain bullet I was using.
RC