Can the SS be modded to run at lower fill pressures?
Just wondering if the Talon SS can be made run from a lower fill pressure, say 2000 psi down to ……??
Reason I ask is pumping ease. The Marauder’s and Discovery’s run this way from the factory if I understand correctly but I’m not sure they are built as well as the AirForce rifles.
Ideally, I would like the rifle to be as short as possible, in .22 caliber and put out somewhere in the neighborhood of 28fpe at the muzzle.
Thanks,
Paul
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I did some more research on CO2 and it actually has a typcial range of ~400 to 2000 psi.
400 psi is at 0 degrees and 10% rated fill
2000 psi is at 120 degrees and 100% rated fill
852 psi occurs at 70 degrees and 30 to 115% rated fill
Very complicated but maybe this chart helps. If you were to consider a black tank setting out in the Texas sun, I’d say you just got a free Power-Up.
Someone on the Canadian Airgun forum posted it.
Thanks Hoot that was a great write up some things in there I never knew and now I do thanks agian Eddie 😯 You never sease to amaze me neither does your neighbor lady 😯 😯
CO2 and Pressure
CO2 is a gas at temperatures above -69.9 degrees F and 60.4 psig (pounds per square inch gauge). It is a very complex compound with the ability to sublimate (change directly from a solid to a gas without becoming a liquid) as just one of its unique properties.
At 70 degrees F, CO2 obtains a gas pressure of 852.8 psi when confined in a vessel. If there is more CO2 in the vessel, it will be have to be in liquid form. So, the state of CO2 in a pressure vessel, such as a powerlet at room temperature, is a pressurized gas above a liquid. If the gas is released, such as through the operation of an airgun valve, some of the remaining liquid flashes to gas until the pressure is equalized for that temperature.
It’s important to understand that CO2 pressure is determined by temperature, not by mechanical compression. If you were to compress gaseous CO2 by mechanical means, it would turn into liquid when the right pressure was reached. The pressure in a 12-gram powerlet remains constant until all the liquid is gone. A powerlet has the same internal pressure as a 10-oz. bulk CO2 tank when both are at the same temperature. Therefore, CO2 guns do not lose velocity as you shoot them until all the liquid is gone and they start to run out of gas.
Also, keep in mind that CO2 is a refrigerant gas. That means it cools when it expands by flashing from liquid to gas. Therefore, when you shoot a CO2 gun rapidly, the gas will cool the gun parts considerably. Because CO2 pressure is based on temperature, the pressure in a CO2 gun will drop if a series of shots are fired in rapid succession. In practical testing, I’ve seen velocities decrease by more than 100 f.p.s. over a long string of shots. That will affect where the pellet strikes the target unless it’s very close to the shooter. So, if you want to shoot accurately with a CO2 gun, do not shoot rapid-fire. With a target pistol, I like to allow at least 15 seconds between shots so the gun’s temperature can cycle back to where it was before the shot. But, if you’re just plinking, you can shoot faster than that.
DOT regulations require the use of a burst disk in pressure vessels larger than two inches in diameter. The brass nut with the hole in the side contains the burst disk in this bulk CO2 tank. If pressure inside the tank rises above the safety level, the disk ruptures, releasing all the gas inside. That keeps the entire bulk tank from exploding with the force of a bomb.
On a very hot day, CO2 pressure will climb rapidly into the danger region. Where that danger region is, depends on how much liquid is in the pressure vessel. Larger CO2 tanks have pressure-relief devices for safety; so, instead of the whole tank blowing apart like a hand grenade, the burst disk will rupture and exhaust all the gas. When this happens, it’s very startling to anyone nearby, and the tank has to be repaired before it will hold CO2 again. Obviously, it’s unsafe to leave a CO2 gun or a tank in a closed car on a hot day.
How fast does my gun shoot?
With some types of airguns, this can be difficult to answer without actually measuring the shots with a chronograph. But, with CO2 velocity depends on just a few variables. With experience, you can estimate how fast a CO2 gun will shoot accurately just by knowing a few things. A short barrel shoots slower than a longer one. A pistol with a 4″ barrel will shoot between 250 and 375 f.p.s. Since there’s no easy way to increase the pressure and there’s not enough barrel length to use the extra pressure even if it could be increased, this range describes most guns pretty well. A pistol with a 5″ barrel will get around 400 to 500 f.p.s. in .177 and 350-450 f.p.s. in .22.
In a .177 rifle with a 20″ barrel, 675 to 750 f.p.s. is common. In .22-caliber with the same 20″ barrel, 575 to 675 f.p.s. is common. I’ve seen some .22-caliber Philippine CO2 rifles with slightly longer barrels get over 900 f.p.s on a very hot day, but on a milder day (less than 85 degrees F) they shoot in the low- to mid-800 f.p.s. range. These guns have wide-open valves and were built to shoot as fast as possible. By wide-open valves, I mean that the orifice through which the gas flows is as large as it can be and the valve’s return-spring is balanced against the weight of the hammer and the power of the mainspring to hold open the valve as long as possible.
The key to higher velocity with a CO2 gun is both high ambient temperature and a long barrel. And, this type of powerplant usually does much better in terms of raw power with the heaviest pellets. That also means that .22 caliber is preferred over .177 when power is needed.
The Hoot
More like 900-1000 psi normally, that is where CO2 sits under normal conditions.
What you are looking at is volume vs pressure. The Talon takes a lot of pressure to get it’s average fps, the condor hi-flo valve uses pressure and a hi volume of air to get it’s super power. If you put a condor tank on your talon and only use a 2000 psi fill pressure you will get a decent fps and a fairly good pallet count before a refill. I have run my tank down to 1000 psi and still got decent groupings out to 20 meters. I might be speaking a little to soon cause I am trying this approach my self at the moment and this is how I expect it to turn out, I hope to confirm a a week or so.
Very true. However, the problem is, he wants a “short” rifle and 28 fpe.
I’m not sure C02 can deliver that at its gas pressure, and the Condor would be way longer than he wants. The Talon SS in C02 might come close, but I still doubt it would get to 28 fpe. I owned one. It shot forever, but fps was limited in the 700 fps range, depending on pellet weight.
Hoot
The Talon and Condor can be purchased as a CO2 airgun which is up to 2000 psi.
I don’t know what the tank is rated at.
It can be done, but the rifle I’m thinking of costs thousands of dollars, is custom built, and it’s not an AF product.
The Crosman products have three different adjustments affecting power. The Talon has one, the power wheel.
You might be able to use a heavy pellet at 2K fill and get a few shots off at that fpe. How many remains to be seen.
A short barrel, 12″, is not air efficient if you want higher fps/fpe. So a short rifle has its penalties.
Best advice is to buy a chrony, they are not that expensive, and test what fill pressures and power wheel settings gets you close to what you want.
Hoot
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WOK, I’d like to nominate Professor Hoot’s and AirGunner’s posts to become sticky’s, together in the same thread, somewhere they can be found again.
Thanks Professor Hoot. That’s a great explaination. Thanks AirGunner, that’s agreat graph.
There are no free rides in science. I think what you are looking for is a carbon fiber tank with a Shoebox compressor to fill it. Just a CF tank would improve your airgunning life tremendously. We all want these things to work more efficiently. Then we want more power. We just cant have both. So, we go for power! 😉 We spend more money than we ever thought we would spend on an “airgun”, or two, or three.
Welcome to the darkside; enjoy your journey. 😀