CO2 Mods what do you think?
I think the CO2 version os the Talon would produce more velocity if the gun’s springs were tuned to work with CO2. Let me explain…
As you said, we know that CO2 operates with just 1/3 the pressure of HPA. Yet, the springs in the gun are identical, whether used with HPA or CO2, and further, we know the springs are set up originally to work with HPA.
Since the hammer spring is sufficient to open the valve on a 2700psi cylinder, it is over-tensioned to open the tophat valve on the CO2 cylinder, which COULD open at much lower pressure.
As a result, the hammer slide opens the valve on the CO2 cylinder with more force and less resistance than necessary (meaning faster). Likewise, the spring behind the tophat (in the CO2 tank) has to overcome the stiffer tension of the standard hammer slide spring to close the valve. This means that total lock time (vent time) is longer than necessary, which explains why the Condor spits CO2 even on the lower power settings.
CO2 is most efficient in building velocity when all the liquid vaporizes behind the pellet just as it exits the barrel. However, the longer lock time means an excess of liquid CO2 accumulates in the barrel. This cools the CO2 as it tries to vaporize, decreasing the efficiency of the entire charge. This explains the spitting, and the lower velocities attained with CO2.
The challenge is to position the tophat so that it closes the valve as quickly as possible to minimize excess CO2 liquid in the chamber. Easy enough to do, I suppose. Maybe someone can explain how.
The other option (and more complicated) might be to de-tune the hammer spring, so that: 1) it has less force so it takes longer to open the valve, and 2) the tophat overcomes the hammer spring tension sooner, closing the valve faster. All this makes for a shorter lock time, less liquid CO2 dispensed, and hopefully, more velocity.
Comments?
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On a pure guess, if the original hammer was 60g., it’s about 45gr. now.
Spooling would work fine. I also suspect you could shorten the hammer. Until I actually see one, it’s all guesswork.
Didn’t have a scale then that was sensitive enough to use, have one now but that’s after the fact and not much use (at least until i have to take the gun apart to change/fix something).
Did make a hammer, but ended up lathing the facotry hammer as much as seemed wise (retaining the delrin bearing rings). It’s more “spool” shaped now.
On a pure guess, if the original hammer was 60g., it’s about 45gr. now.
Ribbonstone,
By saying use a lighter hammer, I’d like to know how light. What is the weight of the stock hammer, and then what is the weight of the “Lighter” replacement. please?
Also, did you use a stock hammer and lighten it, and if so, how?
Or did you replace it entirely with another hammer of lighter material?
Good discussion and it is great to see how much CO2 is catching on.
If the Condor fill adapter was setup for mechanically opening the tophat like the paintball fillers do that push the pinvalve then using the Talon tank would be a good option for CO2. The adapter would not be required, the length of pull would stay the same as well as retain the good looks:)
So having said that it would be interesting to make a snorkel inside the tank posistioned ‘up’ to prevent any liquid CO2 making it into the valve.
liquid works against you if it enters the system at all.
This is getting me interested in a Talon setup 100% for CO2 🙂
Keep up the good work
Walter…
Can save you a lot of aggrivation/work. Shoot over a chronograph. Might find with the issue hammer, something like the following:
1 503fps
2 556fps
3 587fps
4 603fps
5 634fps
6 639fps
7 641fps
8 644fps
9 645fps
10 651fps
11 650fps
12 653fps
Which if you look at it, is little reason to go over #5 or #6. Will SOUND louder, and unless you have a chronograph, will believe it is shooting faster…but it’s just squirting out gas after the pellet is gone.
Make a lighter hammer, and it will look something like this:
1 410fps
2 450fps
3 500fps
4 524fps
5 560fps
6 590fps
7 608fps
8 615fps
9 623fps
10 644fps
11 650fps
12 652fps.
Get about the same top end as before, just at a higher spring tension. Might speed up the lock time, and the lighter hammer might vibrate the gun a bit less, but as far as the pellet’s speed, it’s about the same one way or the other.
Basically, a full wieght hammer set at #5 shots just as hard as a light weight hammer set at #10…but the light weight tends to use a little less gas and be a touch more quiet. Probably the valve is closing faster, letting less gas out after the pellet is already moving down the barrel at a good clip.
Have taken the valve out and increased/decreased the valve return spring tension. the more tension, the more like the bottom numbers…the less tension the more like the top numbers. Too little tension and the gas can decide it isn’t closing the valve at all, and just “whoosh” out in a long jet.
The other thing I’ve found is that long barrels do increase vel. Tried a 24″ barrel (modififed Crosman barrel…i’m not chopping up an expensive one for vel. testing). Basic rule seems to be that the longer the barrel, the higher the spring tension setting to give max. vel. (and vel. increased with every inch of barrel increase…not a whole bunch after 18″, but some). Basically, the longer the barrel, the better use a longer dwell time can be put to.
“build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door”.
😆
Tell us how, and one way or another, we’ll do it.
God, I love the spirit of invention… I just wish she’d punch me in the side of the head a little more often.
Believe you are right; came to the same conclusion.
But I took what seemed a simpler way out and just made a lighter hammer. Though being that with the same hammer spring, same valve spring, the light hammer tends to decrease valve dwell.
Still maxes out before running out of spring tension, gets the same max. velocity as a heavy hammer, but maxes out at a higher setting. Shot count went up, sound seems a bit less.
So sometimes dial it down to “1” and spend a rainy afternoon shooting inside the house…tossing .22 pellets out at 420fps.
Interesting Bob, this explains why I go thru so much co2 so fast. Thanx
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having buttoned it up not too long ago, after replacing the bolt o-rings, hesitant to take it apart to get a weight. Work takes up all but about an hour of daylight. Should be able to take it apart and get a weight soon. Intend to take it apart and make an all Delrin (black) hammer. Pretty light, but if made longer could be of a reasonable weight and increase the spring tension at the same time.
Making it shorter would decrease hammer weight as well a spring tension….could add tension back at the adjuster end of the system with a spacer if you don’t mind the indicator not being able to get down to “zero”. Might not need the tension, worth trying.