Edgun .25 R3M scope rail droop? What scope ring combo is wor
Hello guys,
Received my .25 R3M. Beautiful gun, the stain is lighter than my previous Edgun gun and even though I prefer a darker walnut I find this lighter pecan color very favorable with some fiddle back further adding to its appeal. Magazine is working great and suspect the caulking will smooth out further in time but for now I just want to fall in love all over again and have her settle into her new home.
Now to my question:
late this afternoon I had a chance to mount a zeiss conquest HD scope. I choose 30 yards as a preliminary sight in, just to get it shooting on paper. Found myself 9 inches high at 30 yards and no more elevation adjustments. Not what I was expecting and now find myself scratching my head. I’m using Leupold high quick disconnect mounts. My reasoning for using these rings was so I could purchase better optics with the idea I could interchange the scope between the .22R3 and the new .25R3M but doesn’t look to be a viable option as it appears the two different guns have quite a difference in what I would guess to be droop in the rail. Using the same rings on the .22R3 with Bushnell 6500 elite and have all kinds of elvation adjustment left. Does the R3M have droop designed into the rail and if so how much and how do I compensate for this? How does one go about figuring the amount of droop? Scratching my head didn’t give me any answers so I decided to throw it out to you gents.
Thanks,Mike
All Replies
FVA, many thanks! By coincidence I had ordered the exact same rings and they showed up today. I’ll set things up this weekend.
The mirror method for optical center has some issues, some of the time. It can be off if the objective cover/end ring is not positioned exactly or has uneven thickness in the edge. Usually, it’s fine. The “V-box” method of rotating the tube is considered better. as the tubes are machined under more exact tolerances, but, it can be a pain in the ass to get the crosshair’s center to not form a little circle as you spin and adjust knobs to get optical center. Typically, this is done by people wanting to get the best optics through their scopes by having lenses lined up square and perfectly before mounting. Mechanical centering with knobs is usually a reasonably good method, but it’s best for finding the middle of adjustment range, not optical center; it is a great place to start if you decide to optically center as adjustments are usually small.
Are either of these necessary…no. I slap a scope on a gun many times, and get it zeroed quick. But, I have few scopes mounted this way where light coming in at certain angles makes it hard to get a good picture. I need to remount those and center them, the inner tube of the scope, which holds the line-up of lenses is angled in relation to the eyepiece. It’s better to look straight through layers of lenses.
Here’s a cut/paste explanation of a good procedure, if you are interested. Again, this is for those who don’t mind tedium to get the best performance out of their scopes. Credits to Charlie, whoever he is!
Optically centering a scope
By CharlieDaTune
2-17-2003
Here is a simple way of optically centering a scope. It is a bit time consuming but well worth the time and especially important to do when using an adjustable scope mount. After adjusting using the scope mount, you can then fine tune the final adjustment with the scope.
Aligning the elevation and windage adjustments
1- Back the elevation knob all the counter clockwise until it just stops.
2- Now turn it in clockwise counting all of the clicks until it just stops.
3- Divide the number of clicks by 2. (Example) 256 clicks divided by 2 = 128 clicks
4- Now, turn the knob counter clockwise 128 clicks and it will be centered.
Now do the same with the Windage knob. Each must be done separately as they are usually different in count.
Making the set-up box.
The length of the box needs to be small enough to support both ends of the scope where notches will go and where the scope mount rings normally be. Make a rectangular box long enough (or short enough) and cut a “V” shaped notch in each end of it so that the scope can rest in the “V”. Be sure that the box is wide enough to allow the scope to be rotated without making contact with the adjustment knobs. Though not real critical, when cutting the notches in the ends of the box, try to make them about the same on each end of the box.
Note: You could also very easily make a permanent setup (mount) out of a few small pieces of wood with a little imagination. Just use thin felt or cloth in the notch.
Now the final adjustments.
With your setup box setting on a flat stable surface, set your scope in the “V’s” with the windage facing to the right and the elevation knob facing up and the caps removed. Set up a fixed target or point of reference at 25 yds. While looking through the scope, find your point of reference. Line the center of the crosshairs up with it. Now, as you slowly and gently rotate the scope, you will notice that the point of reference will move around. The objective is to now fine tune the adjustment knobs so that there is little if any movement of the cross hair while it is centered on the point of reference. It’s just a matter of adjusting to make the corrections needed. It may take a little time and patience but it will be worth it and you will at least know that your scope is centered.
When all movement has been removed, your scope is optically centered. In theory, a scope will be much more accurate when it is set up close to the center of is adjustments and that’s what you just did….
Charlie
I use my bathroom mirror and once you see what you are looking for it works well.
Shims suck as to putting stress on a scope.
Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
Mechanically centering via counting available clicks then backing off by half is plenty good enough.
If you have some piece of “old” negative film you can cut small piece and put it under your scope 😉
Here’s a vedio for optically centering a scope and a post from a yellow poster Ed canoles
after watching this youtube video!
In the past I’ve used the “rotate the scope in a vee” method but I found it tricky to turn the scope knobs the right direction for adjustment. It did work but I found it tedious!
Next I tried centering by putting a mirror on a table, setting the scope on the mirror, then with a bright light try to align the fuzzy reticle image but it didn’t work out too well for me.
After that I simply started counting adjustment knob rotations divided by 1/2″ to get a rough reticle centering.
Well……perhaps the setup info provided by the fellow in the youtube video made it all work (like setting the scope to minimum power and focusing at infinity), or perhaps it was his method of putting the scope ocular on a vertical lighted bathroom mirror, but I found it really quick and easy to center my reticle this way. LOL….I had the reticle on both my Vortex Diamondback and Elite 4200 centered in just a couple minutes!
Ride, this may help to explain, The yellow and probably Google will have a lot to say about it. I personal have not tried it. My question to the info below would be how to measure the droop.
Optically center your scope easily – with a mirror!
May 8 2008 at 1:20 PM J. Bruce Aurand (Login Revwarnut)
YC
I have posted this elsewhere but not here, and I see that the subject of optically centering a scope comes up once in a while, so thought I would post it here also.
I used this mirror technique on my 2 spare scopes, a Bushnell Banner 3×9 and an Optronics 4x. It took me less than 3 minutes from removing the caps on the adjustment knobs to centering BOTH scopes!. I also have checked my 3 other scopes and did so while they were still on the guns!
I used a 4″ mirrored candle coaster that had fairly thick glass to do this. Also, good lighting makes all the difference when doing this.
I found by experimenting that up to a point, the thicker the glass is, the better, you not only get more light in to see what you are doing, but the farther out you are from the mirror surface (which is actually on the back side of the mirror glass), the more it amplifies the deviation.
I also found that you need to hold firmly to the end of the scope on the glass because any little movement causes the image to shake.
With that said, you will need to also remove any rubber pads that might be on the bottom of the coaster. Best thing is, you can get these things cheap at any Walmart, Goodwill, Hallmark, or candle store…. etc., and you will not have to cut any glass or worry about sharp edges! I also found that clear plastic gives a false image, so use glass.
You might even be able to find a make-up mirror that will work, but I don’t think that the “magnified” sides of those types of mirrors will work for this.
Edit – this portion was added to the original message to keep it all together.
Place the mirror on a sturdy table then place the scope on top of the mirror with the eyepiece up. Then look through the eyepiece and observe the image.
You will see the crosshairs and you should also see a reflection of the crosshairs as well. All you have to do is to turn each of the knobs until they match up perfectly! It is that simple! Very effective, fast and easy to explain and to setup etc.
A similar mirror technique is used to align telescopes.
Give it a try! You can also place 3 washers on the glass to raise the scope up a bit to increase the amplification of the alignment difference. Just place them so that the end of the scope is firmly on them and is stable. It won’t matter if they protrude into the image.
Below are some questions and answers from responses to the original post and threads from that post. Thanks to all that contributed! (I admit to plagerizing your posts!! LOL!)
Q. Does the power or AO setting matter?
A. It shouldn’t really matter what the power setting is, but you do get a better view at the highest setting because then the whole image is a white background instead of just a portion in the center (which works well enough).
Q. Why not turn to max both ways, count clicks and turn back half way?
A. The reason you would NOT want to turn each knob to the max each way and then count the clicks and turn back half way is that you may run past the last click point on some scopes and not be able to turn it back! Probably only on a cheap scope, but why take the chance! Also, that is a lot of clicks and it takes more time and is not as accurate either. And on some scopes, they will stop moving, but will continue to click, click etc.
Q. What exactly does this accomplish once it has been done?
A1. This puts the crosshairs back to the center of the scope.
A2 Provides a starting point for getting a rough zero with an adjustable mount, or for taking the measurements needed for ordering a “drooper” mount with a preset angular correction machined in.
Received my .25 R3M. Beautiful gun, the stain is lighter than my previous Edgun gun and even though I prefer a darker walnut I find this lighter pecan color very favorable with some fiddle back further adding to its appeal. Magazine is working great and suspect the caulking will smooth out further in time but for now I just want to fall in love all over again and have her settle into her new home.
Now to my question:
late this afternoon I had a chance to mount a zeiss conquest HD scope. I choose 30 yards as a preliminary sight in, just to get it shooting on paper. Found myself 9 inches high at 30 yards and no more elevation adjustments. Not what I was expecting and now find myself scratching my head. I’m using Leupold high quick disconnect mounts. My reasoning for using these rings was so I could purchase better optics with the idea I could interchange the scope between the .22R3 and the new .25R3M but doesn’t look to be a viable option as it appears the two different guns have quite a difference in what I would guess to be droop in the rail. Using the same rings on the .22R3 with Bushnell 6500 elite and have all kinds of elvation adjustment left. Does the R3M have droop designed into the rail and if so how much and how do I compensate for this? How does one go about figuring the amount of droop? Scratching my head didn’t give me any answers so I decided to throw it out to you gents.
Thanks,Mike
You can elevate the scope within the mount by adding an .060 or so shim. Works well with your issue.
You can hold your scope to a mirror and adjust the two cross hairs you see to be one to get to optical center or count clicks and get back to mechanical center.
The 30mm rings highest correction is 10 degree inserts so that is what you would use.
The signature lows are not even usable on the Edgun.
Extra highs are what you want and correlate to most other manufacture’s mediums.
Water.
Fva, will you elaborate on this ,( about using a mirror !! ) it is new to me but certainly caught my eye !!!
Thanks guys for your input. Doesn’t look like my original plan will work and it seems the vote is for ZEE Rings. my zeiss is the conquest so the tube is 1″ which I believe the zee rings has three different sizes for their inserts so I will just have to experiment as to which best serves my needs. Thanks again, Mike
If you don’t then get Burris Signature Zee rings. They have inserts to correct the droop.
I used them on all 3 of my matadors.
+1 for Signature Zee´s ! 😎 Another plus is they won´t mar the scope.
Ed
You will see a 300-yard day Edward :2:
You do not want your scopes adjustment at the edge of it’s range.
You can hold your scope to a mirror and adjust the two cross hairs you see to be one to get to optical center or count clicks and get back to mechanical center.
The 30mm rings highest correction is 10 degree inserts so that is what you would use.
The signature lows are not even usable on the Edgun.
Extra highs are what you want and correlate to most other manufacture’s mediums.
Water.
That is just phsyhology, shooting at the distance more then 100 meters, when you break it, you will find out it is possible 🙂
uote=”Ed”]Yes, I make the incline of the rail at 0.5 degrees, just to have the possibility to have more adjusting gap for the scope. For example with the old rail and my Super Sniper 10×42, I could reach only 150 meters by adjusting the turret at the scope, with the new rail it moved up to 250 meters.
Ed[/quote]
ED, I appreciate your reply.
I bought the latest .25 R3M with the intention of shooting longer distances but don’t think I’m ready for 250 meters just yet. I am beginning to master the .22 R3 at the 90 yard mark and have been getting at times 5/8″ groups, except that there always seem to be one out of the five shot group that opens a potential tight group to about one inch.
Ed, no black grouse here but did go turkey hunting with the .22 R3 a few weeks ago and managed to take a turkey at 110 yards, shot to the neck, an instant kill. It’s moments like these that keep me smiling. Using my Edgun is my preferred turkey gun and no longer pursue them with shot gun.
I also appreciate the opportunity of purchasing your Edguns here in the states. Keep-em coming.
Fast and Danger, thanks for reminding me.
It so happens I do have a set of signature rings around here some where but have no experience with them.
I plan on sighting the scope for 40 yards and with the hold over points and use of the turrent I should be able to reach out as far as I have interest to at this stage of my game. Any idea or guess on which insert to use to bring the present 9″ high at 30 yard shot down to a 40 yard point of aim? Thanks
Burris Signature Ring 30mm Extra High Matte Weaver #BU420585. +10 insert in front, -10 insert in back. Problem solved.
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Do you know what the elevation MOA travel is for the two different scopes?
On the Edgun my Leapers,BSA and Sightron work perfectly, my Nikko however does not…
Here is why:
Leapers/Accushot 8-32x has 76.5 MOA of vertical reticle travel.
BSA Platinum 40x has 67.5 MOA of vertical reticle travel.
Sightron 10-50x has 50 MOA of vertical reticle travel.
Nikko 10-50x has 36.5 MOA of vertical reticle travel.
Here is how you find out how much MOA your scope has (and how to center is without counting hundreds of clicks)..
Determine the number of clicks for a full rotation of the elevation knob. Screw the knob all the way in, note the number and unscrew it all the way out counting the number of rotations.
Multiply number of clicks by number of rotations and divide by the click distance (1/8″ or 1/4″, 1/10″ etc).
For example:
One rotation of the elevation knob is 72 clicks, total travel is 8.5 rotations, total clicks is 72×8.5=612 at 1/8″ per click is 612×0.125=76.5.
This will give you the MOA of travel for that specific scope. To find the “optical center” divide number of rotations by two and set the knob to zero once you center it. Honestly there is no real reason to center the scope elevation travel, if you are clicking for elevation at distance or holding over you want to set zero so you have the best use of the mildots for holdover/under and for clicking you want to only go up with your clicks (so you have no negative amount of clicks to be on target at a given distance.
I suspect anything under 40 MOA will not work with a 0.5 degree (or 30MOA) rail cant. This is not an unusual amount of cant for an airgun. My USFT (a 177 field target for shooting 10-55 yards) has a 25MOA rail cant. My Nikko on the 25MOA rail has 1.25 rotations before it is topped out, happens to be JUST enough for field target competition…
Where did you source the 30mm shimmable rings btw??? 😯 😮