Fed Firearms Silencer Laws Vs Airgum Moderator Code
Hey guys, I could use some help here. I am interested in any links to US firearm laws that distinguish firearm silencers from airgun moderators.
I would also like a link to any US code that states that if an object has to be modified or an adaptor used, it is not a silencer.
Thanks
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Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
I’m not even going to bother reading your reply right now. Don’t have the time for it. . We have no business hi-jacking OG’s thread.
Double post–
so political diettribe is only permitted when its something supporting your position?
How very typical of both the extreme Left & Right…
Look…you need to accept facts on the root source of firearms regulatory authority and thats the Federal Excise Tax structure created under Wilson’s administration back in 1918/19. They got away with the firearms angle back then primarily because taxation on access to a Citizens rights was still legal and remained so until struck down in the 1960s by the Supreme Court but by then the new legal theory was that the 2nd only represented a collective right of the States. Facts are the moment taxation was used to limit any citizens access to RKBA that taxation became legally null & void.
As far as Gun regulation belonging in DOJ…try again. All Firearms laws as based in IRS code, mostly Title 18 and as such the only lawful regulators/enforcers reside under the US Treasury Department…end of story. This isn’t a fringe position, this is straight Constitutional law and your position that it belongs under DOJ was only championed until GW by the extreme wacked out left like Charles Schummer, Diane Fienstien and Harold Waxman…you place yourself among impressive company…LOL This transfer of power was attempted many times by the far left in the 70s & 80s & 90s. Each time the enemy at the gate was beaten back by Conservative politicians who finally folded when that idiot GW demanded the EXACT same thing the left had craved for years under his Homeland Security shakeup. Nope no one said nothing and why? Because it was their boys agenda this time around.
So you want to blame ATF for the Waco slaughter? Thats ludicrous in and of itself. It wasn’t ATF that brought the APCs and burned Mt. Carmel to the ground just as it wasnt ATF special agents that murdered Randy Weavers wife & child…nope my friend in both cases it was your heros in DOJ & those incidents are just the very tip of the iceberg of Justice Department abuses. Our government has been in the business of justifying murder of innocent folks for generations…basically since shortly after the Constitution was incorporated into the original Articles of Confederation.
Yes this is the moderator section however you elected to open Pandoras box & turn it political. Most Gun Owners have zero clue how all this crap came about and its a huge dis service to the uninformed to respond to legal queries with one or two line responses. The “rant” as you termed it was not necessarily for your benefit but for those that have zero understanding of how these laws came into being and operate.
as an aside I suggest you read up on the discussions that occurred in the early 30s between FDRs Treasury Secretary Morganthau, AG Cummings and certain committee members in Congress that led to the National Firearms Act in 1935. The papers explain the treasury department Tax collection nexus very very well & will enlighten you as to exactly Why Gun regulation is a revenue based authority and therefore must be based only in Treasury.
There isn’t anything that needs transilation in historical documents…thats what leftist academics do in our nations colleges and its what Politicians also do to justify their own crimes against the people.
Everything is pretty black & white
Had these little debates many times over the years with my law school professors, politicians, Law Enforcers and forced the majority of them to accept that these certain truths to be self evident.
Had a great deal less success with the average Joe type of extremists on either end of the national political spectrum
Having owned both a Archery range and a gun store, And having publicly debated the “Right To Carry” on behalf of State Rep. Suzan G. Hupp , I too have had the opportunity to do a little research. (I belonged to the Friends of the NRA at the time.) I was debating for the Right to Carry.
It was at a Texas Collage.
Now understand, the by nature, a collage is usually Liberal. And the students made no bones letting me know just how much they disliked “Gun Rights”. I had to debate a Police Chief From Dallas. (Typical Left Wing Politician).
He received a good round of applause when he stepped onto the stage. I on the other hand received a very cold audience.
I spent my time putting the problems facing the public into perspective, and came prepared with facts. Not fear mongering.
When the Chief left the stage, he hot a few claps. I received a standing ovation. Turns out that when people are shown in a non condescending manner, the facts, the truth, and how the facts are being twisted for an agenda, They DO understand!!!
After reading your post, I can see that you know a bit about history. But very little about translating it. Some how you have the basics, but completely mis-understand the implications, impact, how and why.
It was this very kind of thinking that caused and justified the murdering of a multitude of people just up the street from me in Waco. DOJ is exactly where these laws should be pursued. Not the Tax Authorities. How ludicrous.
How presumptuous of you to presume that I don’t’ understand the Law’s or where they came from. Or their intent.
Further, this is the Moderator section. Political rants belong in off topic.
Respectfully.
Knifemaker
nope…as in extreme Northern Minnesota
Not in any way defending the loony left but simply exercising a fair amount of intellectual honesty when it comes to the origins of Gun Control and who are its actual supporters.
Was in the firearm business for DECADES, saw this inane Far Right support of Gun Control on nearly a daily basis. Gun Control is not simply about the tool…its the laws written on exactly who can lawfully possess Firearms too. Let me provide you a number of clear examples of this hypocrisy. When the Gun Control Act was passed way back in 1968 it was the Right that pioneered & pushed the novel concept of “prohibited persons” which is a bit broader than simply folks who may have committed a felony crime these days but we will get back to that in a bit. As written, the GCA incorporated a restoration of civil rights aspect which led to the creation of an entire division within the ATF devoted to restoring folks back their RKBA post conviction. Now I ask you, what happened to it? Well its a very sorted story…back in the 90s Josh Sugarman split off from Handgun Control Inc. to found a new lobbying group, the Violence Policy Center. VPC decided that they were going to try and emasculate the NRA by going after Civil Restoration thinking wrongly that the NRA would support civil restoration. Well the plan was leaked and wouldnt you know it, the NRA went to their Conservative congresscritters who pulled funding from the Restoration division of ATF! Since like about 92′ the only way a felon can get his rights restored is a Presidential pardon with very very few exceptions.
Here is a great one…Clinton Downsized ATF, That traitorous idiot GW not only increased its staffing by over 5000 NEW Special Agents, he unconstitutionally moved it from Treasury to Justice! In case you don’t understand the rock spring where Gun Control flows from, that traces back to the Harrison Anti-Narcotics act of 1912. the Supreme court overthrew the act the following year in US vs Nigro which led to the language incorporated in the Revenue Act of 1918/19 which applied taxation schemes not only to narcotics but to manufacture of firearms and ammo as well. You see at its root Narcotics & firearms violations are Tax crimes which was why enforcement of this tax code was left to Treasury…doper and gun violators are simply Tax Protesters under the law. Remember as well it was Nixon who moved Narcotics from Treasury just as that simpleton GW moved guns to the same location…DOJ. I can spend considerable bandwidth explaining why this is treason but wont bother as most alleged conservatives simply wont care until this shit affects them or theirs.
Now going pack to prohibited persons understand the GCA prohibits not only felons but a broad variety of other categories. Heres my personal favorite…folks on Drugs. Seems pretty clear except under Bush the 1st the concept was redefined to mean Anyone who had used a controlled substance in a manner not prescribed by a licensed physician within the calendar year. You smoke a joint you are prohibited by regulation from possessing regulated firearms for the next 12 months. Wasnt enforced very well until GW, Mr. Enforce the laws already on the books came to power. Worst case I am aware of in this was a 19 year old kid in Iowa who was popped by the local PD for a pot pipe and a couple grams of home grown weed…simple misdemeanor ticket right? A few months later he runs up to a local gun shop and picks up a SKS for deer season. The shop owner who was in heat with ATFE & knew this farm boy had received the ticket dimes him out to the Bureau. DOJ indicts him then offers him a plea for felony possession by prohibited person and offers a plea for probation. The family said not just NO but FUCK NO, fought the case, spent thousands and of course lost, kid went to Federal prison for three & a half YEARS! Know of a number of these cases and btw this shit was a huge factor in Montana in the recent passage of their new intra state gun act.
As far as Airguns go…understand most of the push to regulate airguns as firearms is coming from State & local police and again its about disarming certain groups. Most of this crap isnt liberal in origin but springs forth from the pens of very pro law enforcement politicians…read law & order type Republicans.
Sad thing is you ask your average gun owner if he thinks someone who violated some bogus law a decade back should be allowed to possess a Firearm, most will say NO. It doesnt matter that its now a recognized civil right and it sure dont matter to these idiots that the only way these regulations held any veracity was by the federal excise tax Trojan horse and it certainly doesnt matter that the constitution expressly prohibits the use of taxation to prevent any citizen access to any enumerated right.
I gave up on most of my fellow citizens some time back but I will leave you with two of my favorite quotes from Dr. Sigmund Freud:
Most people do not really want freedom, because freedom involves responsibility, and most people are frightened of responsibility.
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity
And you don’t think the States have the Liberal Left? And your name here is River Side? As in Cali-Wierd? 😕 😉
You can’t blame the Liberal Left for airgun legislation
Quite a chunk of this crap was demanded by State & Local Law Enforcement and usually quietly thrust on the public by Conservative politicians. Reasoning behind it is to prevent “bad” people from possessing anything remotely similar to a firearm. Just gives the cops another potential charge to bank someone who uses an AG to commit a crime.
the difference between the Right & the Left is that the Left wants to regulate things while the Right would regulate people. Changing the status of airguns to firearms is all about regulating access by who
Yep, and that irks me. They are not fire arms, and the Fed’s say so. But no, the lefty whaco’s just have fuck up one more part of America. Just one more right they just have to take away. BUT—–It—–as always—Is for our own good.
I feels so warm and fuzzy that these liberal cock suckers and fucking commies are looking out for the misguided-temporally free Americans. Blessed be the self righteous, for they shall inherit everything we own!
One way or the other.
Mike
Well I did a little more checking and here is the problem as is understand it. Even though it is a AG Moderator, the fact that it is threaded is the biggest problem. Even though it is a male thread rather than the typical female thread, all any one would have to do is make a simple female/fable thread adapter in order to use it on a threaded PB barrel.
Now here is the sticking point. This would allow the ag mod. to be used on a pb without modification to the Air Gun Mod. It would then simply screw onto the adapter, and then onto the firearm barrel..
What I am hoping here is that the authorities will take intent into consideration. This is many times the case with otherwise law abiding Citizens. A person with a record, especially a felony on the other hand would be much more likely to end up having the issue pushed.
Mike
Mike
Good info Mike. As a felon, I have to make it my every day business to ensure I avoid any “pushable issues”. Kind of like walking on eggshells. I’m just glad I live in a state that allows me to have airguns. In states that they are incorrectly considered “firearms” I would not get to have any fun at all.
Hey “O” Goat!
Well I did a little more checking and here is the problem as is understand it. Even though it is a AG Moderator, the fact that it is threaded is the biggest problem. Even though it is a male thread rather than the typical female thread, all any one would have to do is make a simple female/fable thread adapter in order to use it on a threaded PB bbl.
Now here is the sticking point. This would allow the ag mod. to be used on a pb without modification to the Air Gun Mod. It would then simply screw onto the adapter, and then onto the firearm bbl..
What I am hoping here is that the authorities will take intent into consideration. This is many times the case with otherwise law abiding Citizens. A person with a record, especially a felony on the other hand would be much more likely to end up having the issue pushed.
Mike
hear what you are saying 80 Grit…
spoke to a “friend” at FTB awhile ago on this issue. I was told that integrated or permenently installed moderators so long as the work was done by the factory and the design cleared by FTB were kosher and that is why the Maurader, Gamo Whisper as well as a variety of highend silenced euro guns are legal to be possessed & sold as unregulated items under federal law.
Overall ATFE is turning a blind eye toward AG moderators so long as they are being used on an AG but the reality is just because they are not active in busting folks in no way means that if they want to make a federal case on your run of the mill “LDC” that they cant.
I do think the chance of trouble with a shrouded AF rifle is pretty much nill as the weapon isn’t obviously moderated to the laymans eye. Alot of this is about appearances. Now hang a baffled LDC on the end of your condors barrel…everyone that sees it immediately thinks “SILENCER”!!!
just points folks need to consider…
Good info Riverside! This is the reason why I am compelled to keep mine noisy. I would love to quiet down my condor’s, and not have to warn all my neighbors that I will be shooting this afternoon so don’t get your panties in a bunch….
If I had not spent so much time in the can I probably would not care and would have them on all my PCP’s, but I personally cannot risk such a hit.
No such animal in US code…
You might find something in the form of individual rulings from ATFE Firearms & Technology branch but the reality is most of these questions are answered in a case by case basis with a sample submitted.
I can offer you a few worst case scenario guideline:
If the moderator is dis-mountable via barrel threads its very likely prosecutable. Remember always all it needs to do is work for one solitary shot on a conventional firearm, doesn’t matter if the device self-destructs either & its an unregistered moderator subject to the National Firearms Act.
Also remember ATFE regards Any individual component of a moderator as a regulated item.
Adapters can even raise regulatory issues…
Back in the 80s SWD offered an adapter that allowed one to screw on spent 2 liter pop bottles on a variety of firearms. Today those adapters in & of themselves are regulated as moderators. Same with the adapters once offered by SEC that allowed the attachment of pneumatic air tool silencers or others that fitted up motorcycle oil filters.
Understand people have gone to prison for getting caught with a plastic pop bottle duct taped on their .22LR
Now reality check…for the most part ATFE isn’t concerned with what folks do with airguns. Shrouds are pretty safe but a threaded unit gets iffy particularly if you own a .22LR.
Reason why is back in the 70s/80s there were a couple characters selling Parker Hale .22 airgun silencers in Guns magazine that were readily adaptable to .22LR firearms. Took a few years but the Fedz eventually busted the parties involved.
What folks in the AG community ignore at their own peril is that all it takes is some goofball local cop with an attitude/agenda to refer the matter to ATFE and if the FTB lab can somehow fit up your device to a test bed fixture and discharge one round with a loss in Db you are going to be toast before the Grand Jury.
There are a couple rulings on legal paintball silencers & I am pretty sure Crosman received an FTB approval letter on the Mauraders shroud so thats a basic starting point.
One last point to consider is whether your State Criminal code defines AGs as firearms as if it does & many do technically even a shroud may be regulated or outright prohibited. Michigan recently forced retailers to cease offering the Gamo Whisper & the Crosman Marauder for this very reason.
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well I would have to say his question has been asked and pretty well answered. Now mind you were he to post it up on NFA forums like Strumgewher or Subguns he might get slightly different answers basically due to the anal retentive Dats Da law attitude endemic in the NFA community.
Bottomline on airgun mods is that if the US DA was so inclined you could likely be indicted for possession of ANY of them, theres no magic bullet, no sacred charm and no get of of jail free card in the laws & regulations. There isnt a mod out there that cant be adapted somehow to a firearm and thats all they have to do. You want to get an idea how far they can go look into how FTB determined Stuarts Maddi-Griffen .50BMG rifle kits were firearms and based on that determination obtained a SW to raid his operation in AZ.
Even previous clearance letters dont mean a thing as they only have veracity if they are addressed to you and even then FTB can always change their mind at a later date and declare whatever, whatever. Case in point Stuart had been selling his rifle kits for the better part of a decade when they finally went after him and mind you he ran full page spreads in Shotgun News so its not like they didnt know. Bob had also spoke with FTB prior to selling the kits…admins changed and so did the mission statement.
This stupidity only became worse after DOJ assumed the reins of power & its likely to get a great deal more idiotic in the future.
I’m no spring chicken in these things, the old ATF made some serious fuckups but changing venue to DOJ was a seriously dangerous thing for the people
look at it this way…
who gives the new ATFE its marching orders now?
AG Eric Holder, one of the most antigun AGs in history, probably a few steps to the left of even Janet Reno!
part GWs legacy that going to keep on giving it in the ass to gunowners