How do I increase Power??
Hi guys, I’ve recently received my .22 barrel for my Condor-currently .177.
After fitting the new barrel and testing over the chrony, I was getting 680fps with JSB 25gr pellets. It shoots .177 JSB Monsters (13,4gr) at around 1200fps but lacks power with the .22 barrel. When I bought the rifle, I got a new valve kit with new hi flo valve stem and top and .22 valve spring which was fitted including some seals.
My question is, can I set or decrease the tension on the valve spring in order to let more air through or do I work on a lower fill pressure to up the velocity with the .22 barrel. I fill up to 2900psi. I’m trying to achieve around 1000-1050fps with the JSB 25gr’s. Any help appreciated.
Many thanx, Nick.
Ps: I have set the top hat and adjusted the side wheel but this doesn’t have any effect.
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I’ve been playing around with the Monsters, trying different tophat settings, pressures, etc. It’s counterintuitive to watch the speed climb to supersonic as the tank bleeds down (presumably to slower tank valve response time?), then pellet speed eventually drops. But in every case, I’ll shoot a long string until low pressure is obvious. I’m getting the same results, regardless of tank pressures (2800-1700psi) and pw: there’s a very small number of shots, 5-7, which group well before drift. My guess is the thin skirts and softer alloy make them prone to deformation at higher speeds, but too low and their weight becomes an accuracy issue.
My observations indicate the Monsters, in my .22 condor, have a very small speed range at which they are accurate (1/2 in. @ 30 yds.). So far, the Kodiaks/Baracuda 21.14 gr. are more accurate over a wider speed range. At this point, I have to agree w/ Moneyshot; these are showing much better accuracy for a small decrease in pellet weight. Which reminds me:
Moneyshot or anyone, am I correct in thinking lowering the tophat decreases air output by reducing valve travel? How low can I safely lower it on a full flow tank? Thanks.
btw…if i was you id find an alternative to the piledrivers, ive heard not good things about them. at the very least, im sure their uneven journey through the barrel will cause accuracy to suffer with better pellets.
if the monsters are only doing 4 fpe less, youd do well to try ej pellets or kodiaks, youll likely get comparable performance with accuracy to boot…
glad we could help. what exactly did you do to correct the problem, aside from cleaning?
Nick and Bogman..My 2 cents worth…
Don’t get fixated on 3000 psi, just because your tank can handle 3000 psi, that does not mean the rest of your gun can.
The whole tunning thing is a balancing act, between the valve its spring, the hammer weight, the tophat, the power wheel and its preload spring.
If you are shooting at an average of 1025fps with the power wheel on 5 at 2500psi.
Then a PW of some number 3-4, 2400 fill will shoot at around 1010fps.
Then a PW of some number 1-3, 2300 fill will shoot at around 995fps.
Then a PW of 6-7, 2600 fill will shoot at around 1040fps.
Every 100 psi move up or down, changes your average fps by 15 to 20.
And after every move, you need to compensate with the power wheel, you still need to fine tune to find the curve
But you must have enough hammer to open the valve, I for one can’t open my valve(and stay on the curve) over 2600, 2700psi. I would need more hammer weight to do it. But, I like it just the way it is.
For you Nick, this is a blessing. You fill from a tank, Sure would be great for you to shoot at your target..1000fps at 2400-2500psi. Think how many fills you could get from your big tank, rather than filling to 2900psi.
Its all a trade off, the power mongers throw in a big hammer weight, fill to 3000psi and spit out pellets at 90+fp. For your goal of 1000fps 60fp, 2400-2500 might be just the perfect setup.
Hey Nick,
I’d be curious about accuracy with the JSB Monsters going over 1,000 fps. So far, I haven’t had great results: a few shots real tight (=<1cm) and then drift, as if the pellet speed is really picky.
Our setups aren’t too far off; am working with a .22, hi-flo valve system, but a stock hammer (so far). With the tophat set a bit high (.097) and 2900psi, I’m still needing to preload the spring with pw 5-6 or so to get decent speed.
One thing that’s baffling is the juggling between faster, shorter bursts at higher psi and slower, longer acceleration at lower psi. Any future info you discover involving these variables would be of interest, especially with the Monsters.
Thanks for your posts! I can’t imagine what kind of rocket you were holding when it was .177!
@ MrNewbie and Moneyshot-A BEEEEGG thank you!! After reading your last posts, I decided to give it one more go. As stated in the beginning of the thread, I wasn’t getting the power that everyone else was (in .22) with their rifles.
Tonight I cleaned the new barrel, stripped the rifle and refitted it(.22 barrel). I know there’s about 2500psi in the cylinder so I put the first shot over the chrony with JSB Monsters (25gr). I nearly soiled myself-1011fps giving me 59fpe, up from 634fps or there about. Another shot confirmed that all was well so I put another shot over with 30gr Piledriver giving me 63fpe.
This on the lower part of the powercurve.
I am so stoked, you won’t believe it.
There rifle was going in for a power tune this coming Wednesday but not necessary anymore-it was going to cost me a lot of money(around $150 in your currency) a shit load here in S.A.
This weekend I’ll spend time finding the rifle ‘sweetspot’ and then I’m ready to sort out a pest problem that’s been hassling me for some time now.
Thanks to everyone for your willingness to help, see you in the ‘Hunting’ section soon with pics of my kills.
Nick.
mrnewbie is 100% right, i didnt realize there was a 177 barrel, theres no way to avoid that barrel causing a dump unless you keep the heavy ass 177 return spring and deal with limited power in .22/.25
btw…its not psss, its PSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
😆 😛
Nick S510 wrote
(When I bought the rifle, I got a new valve kit with new hi flo valve stem and top and .22 valve spring which was fitted including some seals. )
Then quit shooting the gun with your .177 barrel, you have made your choice you want more power and to shoot .22 at 1000+fps.
That valve and spring are designed for a certain amount of back pressure, the back pressure a .22 or .25 will create..not .177.
TANK DUMP!
Once, I experimented a little barrel swapping, .25cal well over 1000fps, .22cal around 1100fps. With no power tweaking, just barrel swapping to play.
Then I tried the .177 barrel , WOW bet its gonna be 1300fps+
Pssssssss., tank dump.
So before you send your gun out, at least put the .22 barrel in it and give it a try. You may be surprised
master tuned or no, youll be tearing into it again soon enough i bet… 😆
Well guys, I’ve decided on a quick solution-even if it means I don’t learn as quick as I wanted. The Condor is going to one of S.A.’s master airrifle tuners. He’ll be able to drag out every bit of power the rifle has to offer. I’ll let you know how it goes.
As mentioned before, all the info you guys have given will be kept for future reference as I want to learn all there is to know regarding these awesome rifles.
Thanx again.
Nick.
in summary, there are 2 ways to make more power. keep the valve open longer, or make more room for air to flow(porting).
In summary I’ve learnt that no matter what setting or where the top hat is-the valve won’t let more air through. I’m going to strip the valve again within the next day or so and would like to email the pic (of the valve parts) to one of you guys to post here-if you don’t mind. (I don’t have a pc so all postings are done off my Blackberry) Any suggestion on mods would be appreciated. So could I ask someone to pm their email adress?
Thanx again for all the help.
Thanx a lot for the help so far guys. The 3rd attempt went as follows: not as dramatic as the previous attempts.
After moving the bird to another room, stripping and re tightening the valve retainer screw, putting on a clean pair of jocks and consuming a double shot of the Capes finest brandy and coca cola(for the shivers) I scraped together the last of my shattered nerves.
I refilled the cylinder to 2800psi( just managed because that’s all my dive cylinder had left to offer) the chrony repositioned with padding all round(none the worse for wear) the first shot gives me 1121fps. It climbs to 1132fps and then starts falling to around 1112fps, this was over 7 shots or so. Every shot was hell-i couldn’t handle another dump!
So now I’ll refill the dive cylinder, move the rifle back to the original settings and enjoy it as it was until I’ve read every bit of info on this forum regarding the tuning of these beasts. I’ll ask questions as I learn and when I’m enlightened to a point where I’m pretty sure I know what I’m doing, I’ll try again. Thanx again for all the help and info guys, all the points mentioned have been written down for reference in the coming weeks.
.177 barrel still fitted-first shot over the chrony shows 1167fps with 13,4grs. 2nd shot shows 1180fps. Its looking good but still needs to pick up quote abit. 3rd shot over the chrony-ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE!! The chrony was blown off its stand, the backstop (a solid 2″ American Walnut block off wood was thrown against the door. Now I know what you guys mean when you talk about a Condor dumping.
It took me some minutes to recover-my parrot has aged 10 yrs in 3 seconds. O yes, I went to change my jocks.
After 15minutes I scrape the courage together for another attempt. I refill the cylinder after stripping the valve and tightening that bloody retainer screw thing. The first time it was filled to 2900psi, the second attempt started at 2600psi. Right let’s do this, I’m ready for it this time and after the first shot-all hell broke loose again. Yes it dumped!!
My 300bar dive cylinder has enough air for one more charge, the cylinder has been restripped, valve retainer screw tightened quite a bit more and the parrot has been moved to another room. Let’s see what happens-i’ll keep you updated.
LMAO!!
So you done unscrewed it a bit too much!
Tank dump aint no fun is it ? 😆
In theory you shouldn’t need a spring in there, the bottle pressure should snap the seal back in place after the hammer has smacked it open. But it don’t quite work out that way with the AF rifles…
i try to avoid a dump at all costs, but the theoretical improvement in air flow without the return spring is too tempting to pass on.
pab, why do these rifles seem to defy the laws of physics? i think the key likely lies in the fact that the mainspring exerts constant pressure against the valve. i got a spring comin with a barrel+hammer courtesy of drum, its supposed to have a higher rate so i can minimize preload and still be able to open the valve at my relatively high preferred fill pressures. that is of course, if i can pull a big financial rabbit out of my ass by mid december… 🙄
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(Moneyshot or anyone, am I correct in thinking lowering the tophat decreases air output by reducing valve travel? How low can I safely lower it on a full flow tank? Thanks.)
Yes, but
Read this..
http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6566
And This..
http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249
And This,,,
http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3143
You can not expect a 75 shot, at same poi from these guns,
that is what all this find the curve stuff is about. Find the fps your
gun/pellets like and shoot 25-30 shots in that fps range.
If you gun is really going supersonic..then you may be shooting to fast for
the best accuracy. Many claim 850-950fps is the proper speed range. Others do well in the 1000 to 1100 fps range.
There should be no safety issues in lowering your tophat, but I think an oring behind it is a good idea.