HPA
Did notice there was a post on HPA in CO2 adapters…but I’ll pass on joining that pissing match.
In summer, have been using this gun with co2 only. Noting too impressive about the energy, something in the 10 to 10.5 foot pound range. Good enough for all my backyard plinking and pest birding.
Have had a standard Talon air tank and have played with the idea of a Mirco Meter tank. Know I could get a standard tank down around this level for at least a short string of consistent shots. Not sure about the Mirco Meter being all that easy to bring up to 12 foot pounds.
Mind set on 13.5gr at about 640fps or 14.3gr. at about 615 fps. Faster would not be preferred.
But I really don’t care for the PCP tanks. Do NOT like having to remove them to fill (a fill nipple would be so much more convenient). Am a dedicated pump filler, having given up the tanks a few years ago, and the 490cc’s of the PCP tanks are NOT all that pump fill friendly.
QUESTION:
Was pretty green at PCPs when I had the standard Talon PCP tank…perhaps it is easier to adjust to 12 foot pounds that I thought. If so,how,?and about what shot count? Think I’d still not be in love with the volume, needing to remove the tank to fill, and the tendency to be gas-hoggish…but would love to be proved wrong.
For now, tried an alternative: HPA
Tried an 850 psi output HPA tank (borrowed from another gun) on the co2 adapter. Really, not enough difference from warm weather co2 to worry about. Past a certain setting, it just would not shoot any faster, but would waste more air. Could get 100 shots at about 10 foot pounds, and that’s probably enough for all the uses I would put this gun to.
QUESTION:
Why not faster? Top hat adjustment, striker weight, striker spring tension, or top hat setting couldn’t get it up past that point.
Other guns (not the same make) using the same tank usually top out at 14 foot pounds or so (and a .25 can top 30foot pounds on this pressure). So I know 850air can generate more energy than this 10 foot pound talon SS is showing.
Am thinking its a matter of “on deck” air volume. Those other guns had a larger volume of 850PSI gas between regulator and valve. With the TalonSS, there is just not a whole lot of air between the regulator and the valve. By the time the pressure of that small volume of air drops enough to activate the regulator, the pellet is well on its way.
(BTW: the above seems to be true. With an ON off ahead of the HPA tank, the velocity of a shot with the on/off on “on” is the same as when the on/off is “off”. So evidently the pressure added to the on deck air is too late.)
So I’m thinking, as a SIMPLIFIED example (not real world numbers…just a mental construct):
If we consider only the volume of air between the regulator and the valve:
If I have 15CC’s of 850psi air, and suddenly fill a 5cc volume, the pressure drops to 567 psi. So the net push is something like 708psi.
IF I have 10 CC’s of 850psi air, and fill a 5cc volume, drops to 425psi….net push being 637psi.
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Like there is a hole that goes from the tank to the reg and on my paintball reg its super tiny compared to the jds reg and no there is no real need for recovery has on an airforce I was just saying to let people know some of the differences and stuff. But boy would a machinegun af rifle be cool to play with once.
if the reg is slow the valve won’t close so quick
so more air is lost.
Unless its a machine gun.
What gun?
maybe it refers to time needed for the valve chamber to repressurize? by the time you cock, load, and aim, it will have had time to do it 1000 times… 😕
Gearhead, you mentioned recovery time in the above, I don’t see how recovery time is involved in an AirForce gun application.
Unless, you have another type of gun?
Mrnewbie:
Are right, the standard paintball tanks are 850psi output. JDS and Experta offer tanks set to various higher pressure outputs…and they are more expensive (generally $85-$100 vs $50-$60 for 850 out put).
Had ordered one from JDS some time back for another project, so thought I’d spread my business and order this one from Experta.
Will see how well my experiment in finding the goal pressure worked once the tank gets here. Left the settings alone on the TalonSS, so once I plug in and fill the bottle, will see how close the estimation was.
Wow that pritty good what do u get with 21 grain Kodiaks.
I use a 48 cubic inch 2000 psi regged paintball tank on my condor on low power and I get 900 fps with 18.1 jsb for around 100 to 150 shots.
Well I have a paintball reg that came on a pure engery 72 ci tankand it a 3000 psi. And I have it set to 2500 I wana lower it down to around 2000 psi and it works great the only thing is its recovery time Is a hair slower but if I wanted I could open up the hole but its not worth it right now.
(QUESTION:
Why not faster? Top hat adjustment, striker weight, striker spring tension, or top hat setting couldn’t get it up past that point.)
I think you have already figured this out yourself.
Because that paintball tank is REGULATED to around 850psi. It is working, doing what it is suppost to do.
It was pretty ingenious of you as to how you figure out your output psi/fps ratio and came to your 1200psi target output pressure. However I don’t think 1200psi is a standard output from paintball manufacturers, double check your info. If your correct, good for you, your all set, go for it.
If not,
JDS sells some super high quality stuff, tanks and regs, but its expensive.
Also its pretty darn easy to up the pressure of some paintball tanks, to just about anything within reason, I would be happy to post links and expand on this option is you like.
Thanks for the responce.
Even if the Micro valve could be made to shoot to my goal, will probably go ahead and use a small (13ci) HPA tank.
Did some experiments this AM…looks like 1200psi output would do the trick with some room to adjust the gun’s settings up or down to get to 12 foot pounds.
Today’s tests:
Tried a small non regulated air tank (gauged) connected to the co2 adapter. Filled to low pressure (1400psi) and shot while keeping track of velocity and tank pressure. Small enough tank that the sweet spot would only last 8 to 10 shots.
Idea was that once I found this set ups (including the gas hungry old style Condor valve used on the co2 adapters) relationship between pressure and velocity, could order an HPA tank with the regulator set at the output that seemed best for the 12 foot pound goal.
So the set up was this:
Fill tank to 1400psi
Same 14.3gr. pellets
Shoot a string keeping track of velocity and tank pressure.
Top hat set to max.
Shoot the whole string at one power setting.
Repeat above at a different power setting.
Power set on #1.
Peak velocity: 560fps @ 900psi (about 10 foot pounds)
(has worked well here with an 850psi HPA tank)
Power set on #3.
Peak velocity: 620fps @ 1050psi (12.2 foot pounds)
Power set on #5.
Peak velocity: 645fps @ 1200psi (13.2 foot pounds)
Power set on #7.
Peak velocity: 680fps @ 1350psi (14.7 foot pounds)
Would prefer an output with a little “fiddle room”; able to set the gun a little up or down if the results are not quite what I want. 1000psi could probably make it,, 1400 would be more of a job to bring down, so it looks like 1200psi output.
1200psi is a standard offering for the Airgun HPA tank sellers, and it could be brought down to 12 foot pounds with some reduction of the top hat. Might save some gas as well.
IF this stays proportional, then 100 shots at 10foot pounds (850psi bottle) should work out to something close to 70 shots at 12 foot pounds (1200psi bottle).
I have always gone full throttle on my guns, but it sounds to me like you need a micro valve.
I recently sold a AA S410 FAC for that reason, it was anemic at 30 FPE.
I bought a used tank last week that had a micro valve in it, they are very different from either the Talon or Condor valve.
The Derlin seat is longer, the vavle retainer has a very small hole in it, and a surprise to me was that the entire valve spring, derlin seat and valve spring are contained inside a little steel sleeve.
It is gathering dust in my parts bin, I will never use it, but it was educational to disassemble it.
Regards,
Roachcreek
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Follow up.
Tank arrived today (WOW..that was fast…ordered from Experthap on Sat. the 5th, arrived at my door on Mon. the 7th)..also ordered a rebuild kit (just a little future insurance).
My gauge reads 1175psi…close enough to 1200 for my use.
Same settings as in the experiment yielded 643 fps / 13.1 foot pounds. Just dialing the striker spring down to 2 brought it to 628fps/12.5 foot pounds.
Thinking a little reduction in top hat might get me right at my 12 foot pound mark.