Market research regarding Barnes heavy weight slugs for .22s
We at Surefire Casting are considering bringing to market some heavy slugs for the .22 airgun. We’ve been kicking some ideas around with Gary Barnes regarding what is feasible and worthwhile to pursue. What we’re thinking of is a slug that would be in the 50gr range for powerful .22s that have maxed out what they can get out of the commercially available pellet designs. We don’t have the time or resources available to investigate every .22 out there to see what it likes best or can handle so we’re asking for some help.
We would like to know what you think the optimum mass would be for a heavy slug. Should we look at 50gr as the target weight or would a 55-60gr slug be better? Is .218 the best diameter to size to? We understand that most of you will be using choked barrels so the slug will have to be designed to cope with that. Still, there might be some size that works better than others.
How about those of you with guns that use a magazine: what is the longest slug that your gun can load in the magazine without jamming? Would a “power round” that has to be single loaded be worthwhile?
Is a heavy weight slug something you would actually consider worth paying a premium for? Casting slugs by hand is not the way to compete with big companies that can use machines to make thousands of slugs while we wait for the lead pot to get hot! Is this even worth it? Would you pay $15 per 100 to get heavy slugs for your .22 airgun?
We have had pretty good luck with our .25 slugs and have lots of very satisfied customers. We’ve also had a bunch of calls for us to make a .22 version. We’re not sure given the limited volume if it is worth pursuing. If we go ahead with the .22 model, we’d like to make sure it fits as many of the powerhouse .22’s out there as possible.
If you have a powerful .22 that shoots the available pellets at or near the maximum velocity they deliver good accuracy, please chime in with your opinions or observations.
All Replies
Jerry,
I’d say 45-50gr.
As far as BC is concerned, maybe a 1.5 radius ogive w/ 1/2 diameter meplat (flat nose). Possibly a “bore riding” design w/ 2-3 “driving bands” which would be sized to fit an average “groove diameter” of most barrels.
Based on the .25 slugs, I’d say the grooves between the bands would benefit from being shallower, very close to the bore/land diameter of most barrels. The only reason for deep grooves is to hold lubricant, which we (airgunners) do not need.
Thanks guys,
Getting some good thoughts here. I’ve got a little dis-advantage as I don’t really have a good feel for how strong the standard Condor in .22 can toss a pellet. I’ve offered my .308 Condor in trade for a Talon tuned version of a .22 but no serious takers so far!
The reason I don’t think 950 FPS is magical is that most folks are measuring 950 darn close to the muzzle. Those diablo pellets slow down pretty darn fast. If the muzzle velocity is 800 but the velocities are equal at 75 yards, which has the better trajectory at 40-60 yards? I’m not sure I know how to figure that out. Maybe someone with chairgun and some experience will help out here. Maybe 40gr is perfect? I’m not wed to 50gr by any stretch BTW, I just don’t want to replicate anything that is already on the market. In fact, if the biggest slug that any current .22 can handle is already out there, we won’t bother jumping in.
Anyone have any data on chamber length for the magazine fed guns? Still looking for data here and especially wants and needs of the market. If you guys value velocity over power we will make a lighter slug (just heavier than the current max). If you value maximum energy on target, we will make the heaviest slug that fits your guns and still shoots well to at least 50 yards.
heli, Thanks but we’re not sophisticated enough to incorporate polymer tips.
edward, As far as molds go, No. 😀 We’re trying to sell slugs here not give away secrets! Just kidding. If Gary wanted to sell these molds, they would be advertised here first. There is even less margin in selling molds than slugs though. It takes a ton of work to make a mold (without CCM) and they don’t bring in enough to make it worthwhile. There are some companies with all the facilities to offer custom molds though. I’ve had one made for a .32 slug and you might look into it as well.
Black-Sabot, 3-6 MPH is nothing! We can do this! Really, 100 yards is a long way for an airgun and doping the wind is tough. The diablo pellet that slows down so fast because of its high drag stabalizing tail is very suceptible to wind drift. A slug that starts out slower but finishes faster will require less correction. Now, what is the compromise between initial velocity and drop verses BC and drift? I don’t know that we can find the best but hopefully we can beat what is out there already!
I appreciate the input thus far. You guys really have the opportunity to drive the design of a product intended just for you. I hope more folks will jump in.
You know I’m not listening to you until your wife gives me a report on the .25s right? 🙄 😆
What makes you say 35-45gr? Doesn’t Eun Jin make something close to that already?
Well, i have to agree with Sabot when he says about the trajectory thang. I know that lower velocities shouldn’t make a difference for accuarcy, but a flatter traj’ makes for easier shooting( at least for me 😳 ) Finding the perfect balance between trajectory, fps and fpe is the key. In my case i want a one inch kill zone from 20-60 yards with hold on, whilst keeping the round at about 950-1000 fps. All the while i want to project as much fpe down range as possible. I think that a pellet at about 40 grains will achieve this. Not all gunners are as good as you you know 😀 Being able to hurl as heavy a pellet as possible, whilst not having to hold over/under would make the slug far more accessible to far more shooters. As the norm for these guns are about 60-80 fpe, 40 odd grains would tick all those boxes.
Eun Jins and Sam Yangs go about 32 grains, but these guns in .22 can go a little more and still fire flat.
My tuppence worth.
And i swear i WILL test those 6 rings Jerry!! ( Realised my new LDC has been clipping so those fps readings i gave you before can be tossed out.)
hey if you design a mold i would pay for one i do not know how you make your molds but i would be intrested if you thought about selling them.
35-40 gr. polymertip
Jerry, where I live/shoot/kill things tends to always have a nice little 3-6mph crosswind. I like to hunt small game just like I hunt big game -glass and shoot, so I often shoot bunnies n’ such at around 100 yards. Compensating for the drop is simple math, guessing at what the wind really is and compendating for that is responsible for most of my misses (that and range estimation, see next paragraph). I need a heavy pellet that will cut down on the wind drift, plain and simple.
My concern is getting the pellet too heavy. Even though it’s greater drop can be compensated for, too arcing of a trajectory requires that much more additional accuracy in range estimation ability which adds to further shot difficulties.
I would think there is a perfect weight in which the greater BC of your bullet offsets the FPS loss of the standard pellet at longer ranges the way that a 70g .223 round is traveling faster at 500 yds. than a 40g .223 shot from the same gun, again due to a greater BC.
I know that I would pay a premium for an air bullet that added to my setup’s performance in the field. Another thought I have is that the only reason I see that guys switch to a .25 barrel on the AF guns is to be able to shoot the heavier pellets with the higher BC’s, get close to that in a .22 and I would sure think that you have a lot of guys lining up to buy em’!
You mould……..we’ll shoot.
Paul,
You know I’m not listening to you until your wife gives me a report on the .25s right? 🙄 😆
What makes you say 35-45gr? Doesn’t Eun Jin make something close to that already?
35-45 grain would be better??
GTBJ,
I KNEW you’d be responding! 😆 I’m not sure of the optimum weight either (hence the research). I don’t think there is anything “magical” about 950 FPS though. I think a lot of Condor shooters think so but I think it is just because they can get to those velocities so easy. I’ve got several big bores that shoot really heavy slugs well below 950 and I’ve never missed the velocity. Yes, high speed is nice for trajectory but the heavy slugs will not slow down as fast as a pellet so there is that factor as well. I think we want a pellet that is at least in a weight class above what you can buy cheap at PA or any other place. We won’t sell any of these if they are just a fraction different than what the big guys can mass produce. We need to stay within reason too though and it would be nice if they fit inside magazines for repeaters. Well, that’s why I’m looking for input! 💡
Black_Sabot,
Nice raise there! 😆 You better be there when we’re ready for some field tests. 😯 You’ve hit on the whole point of the heavy slugs: carry the power downrange. I don’t expect BCs like a .50 boattail made for 2800 FPS but I do expect that these slugs will not shed velocity near as fast as the typical diablo shaped pellet.
I would love to see something around 42-48 grains. With the length I would think that would required get within that weight range at around .218 dia., the sectional density of the slug should be exceptional and should make for a pretty high B.C.
The high B.C. is exactly what interests me about your prospect of a true heavy weight .22 bullet. With high B.C. you of course get the higher retained energy at the distance these guns are capable of taking small game at and the HUGE benefit such a bullet’s ability to avoid wind drift.
I’ll see Bluejay’s offer above to beta test and raise ya’ the postage for mailing em’ to me to shoot 😉 . Please do keep us posted to your progress on this.
I’m all for it 8)
as for the weight I just don’t know, 50grains sounds like a good starting point… but possibly too heavy to keep in that magical 950 range, possibly not though as I can get the crack when shooting kodiaks.
what if you just took the same designs as the slugs your making now and just scaled them down to .216 or possibly .218 and see what they weigh?
I will be happy to be one of your beta testers when you start playing with them 😉
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There you go! There’s some serious input! That’s what I’m talking about.
I’m not kidding guys, we are pretty sure we want to do the .22 slug but we want some input as we want to sell the damn things not just enjoy them ourselves! That means making what the customer wants. If these slugs are going to be pure Talon/Condor slugs per the design input from Talonairgun.com members, so be it. I’ve asked for input on 3 forums but you guys are the only ones to step up with a comment or two. I guess if the Rapid guys don’t want to say what their max length is, they are happy with their little bitty pellets! 😆
Now, sharpshooter, remember that the nose of the slug has far less impact than the base on BC or coefficient of drag for a subsonic projectile. I was expecting you to demand a rebatted boattail base!