Matador R3 is revealed =) for real this time
Not sure if you guys saw that on Russian Edgun forum, but I just noticed that R3 has been officially released to the general public.
Its all in Russian (i am Russian so its no problem for me) but you can use babelfish or other translator program to read it.
http://edgun.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=9190
All Replies
Ed
Ed,
My question: why does it take that long to get an Edgun in EU too? I’m desperately waiting for my .25 🙁 with Joost. I prefer now a R3 ofc..
😀
Hello Ed.
Could you show us a stripped down R3 .25 caliber? I would like to see one stripped down like the picture of the Leyia that was posted here.
I am really looking forward to the R3 .25 cal.
Tedd
I for one would be interested in the evolution of your product. I understand while new things are being created the History of their development seems of very little use. ( I am just a techno-guy)
Mark, believe or not but I am not interested in what had been, I am pointed to what will be 🙂 that is the philosophy of my life. Usually it happens as I got an idea to have something new, I am very impatient while making sketches, then I just jumping being impatient while making computer model, I cannot sleep when it is being made at CNC machine, I few times a day call the guys who made my ideas in the metal “When!!!???”. Finally I got the details, I grab them, put all together not paying attention to the fact that I have prepare them, polish some surfaces and things like that, I am running forwards like a bull seeing only one thing – the mechanism that should work. Then I find it working about 90 % of what I’ve planned and suddenly I loose my interest in what I made, I feel emptiness inside and a new idea begin to grow up inside me, I am living in a new idea again, and don’t care about what I have done before. That is me. Even now, I have a thing that can shock the air gun users, I made it, it works, and it stays on my working desk for couple of weeks already, gathering dust on it :), I am just lazy to finish it to make a commercial sample since I have a new idea in my head. So I have to force myself to finish it, I will do it, for sure but I will not feel any flight of thought about it, that turned out to be just a work, which I hate :).
From what I found, Mark White Patent was issued 2005 ( I think it can take up to 2 years for that to happen) and I don’t remember when the AAC Prodigy was introduced. If I recall it was some time in the last 4-6 years. I remember that the New Monolithic Baffle Stack was of great interest…..as to its performance…I went with the SWR Specter.
I am stupid I don’t care about any patents and so on. I know that I have not to do this way, but I don’t care. When someone ask me “You didn’t take patents on what you have done. Aren’t you afraid that someone will steal your idea and will make money on it?” I answer that I am able to create new things and will beat the thieves anyhow so I don’t care about it. Though, I think, living in a wild capitalistic world I have to follow its rules, maybe some day I will take care about it but I don’t want to do it. I am supporter of the idea free information and it seems absolutely ridiculous for me the situation when someone make something but didn’t cover it with the papers, just making and the other one just make the “right” papers and suddenly have all the rights on what the other developed! To me there is no more stupid thing then such a situation.
Please know this is just a quest for information. NOT anything else. It is interesting to see how people with avid or Vested interest in certain things quickly jump to their defense. Unfortunately I know there is a difference between a US patent and an International one. I for one have no say in either.
It has been proven several times that Items of almost Identical designs have been developed in complete isolation from each other.
One thing I find most interesting is in the “Powder Burner World” noise reduction is the Primary Interest. (accuracy improvement is a side benefit)
In the Airgun world…..The Moderator aids in “Accuracy” and is the main interest.
I look forward to continuing developments in both fields……..
With regards to the New R3… I am very interested in the details of the NEW L.W. barrels. What twist rate did you go with? and did this help with accuracy with the heavy pellets.
Mark
I don’t jump to defend my interest, I just don’t like when someone things I am stupid enough not being able to develop something myself, that is the only reason why I began to explain. As for patents, rights etc., as I told before – I don’t care.
I found that moderator has a great issue in accuracy, that is correct, so to me, now, while I am making a new moderation the important thing is not only the sound suppression but influence to the accuracy.
As for new L.W. barrel, we changes twist, you can easily measure it, we changed, the process of the production and we changed the inner diameter of the barrel for JSB pellets especially. It took me about a year of test and a lot of money for ordering barrels with different characteristics (for example we tested twists from 450 mm to 310 mm with step 20 mm to find the best for our tasks and out pellets and range of shooting). That is quite a work and I would like to keep it unrevealed to get an advantage of it 🙂 you see that I got the capitalist point of view to the life 🙂 Shortly, I consider the new barrels as perfect, and only users can either confirm my opinion or defeat it, let see…
Ed
Mark,
A while (4-8 months) ago, Ed posted a link on this forum to a website showing the complete history of the Matador. Unfortunately, I do not have it saved in my archives. But, maybe with some digging, you could find it.
ted
😀
Aha, I see what you mean. Have no idea believe you or not but I see those pictures for the really first time in my life. You told, also that I have visited some forum, if I understood your phrase correctly:
“I was impressed to see you actually went to a suppressor forum and went through pictures and diagrams last time. Post up pictures of the new internals.”
I never visited suppressor forum and have no idea where it is located. As for the way I got what the design of my moderators, it have not that was quite clear:
1. We made moderators first using the cone baffles installed into the tube. But as the inside surface of the tube was far away to be perfect and as effect of that we have the wholes in the baffles not located on one axis we could have some problems with the accuracy. Since the accuracy is one of the most important features of air guns I have to think what to change.
2. I thought that if we cannot base the baffles on the inside surface of the tube we have to make a chanel which is completely meets the axis of the pellets fly, thus we have to drill the whole piece of the metal to make is solid. We did it. I had no idea what baffles should look like and we made two different tipes:
2.1. The first one with the incline baffles in one direction (as at the picture you have attached).
2.2. The second with the baffles inclined to different directions, like here:
Then we tested them and I found that the first one was a little better, but not as good as I would like it. So I have to make other tests, “playing” with the baffles, the incline and the distance between them.
At the end of those tests I made this design, which is used for all out guns now:
It seems a little different, isn’t it? 🙂 So if someone will use such an incline should I sue him for the plagiarism? 🙂
Besides, when I made the moderators to that sheme already I got the link to Russia VSS gun:
http://www.zonawar.ru/shkolaspetsnaza/vss.html
And I found that it looks very similar to what I have made 🙂 Did your Mark steal the suppressor baffles idea from VSS? Since VSS was designed in 1983, almost 30 years ago…
That is absolutely normal when different people on different sides of the Earth, working on the same problems find similar schemes. I know many things in air guns which were taken from my guns by other manufacturers so what?
Ed
I’m interested to see what design you went with this time.
I was impressed to see you actually went to a suppressor forum and went through pictures and diagrams last time. Post up pictures of the new internals.
Did you talk to me? If so — could you ask your questions more clearly, English is not my native language so I could miss the point of what you have’ said.
Ed
Sorry I will try again.
In this picture the moderator appears to be identical to the first gen baffle stack of this design:
Which was really just a copy of Mark White’s original design as seen in this suppressor:
All of those designs are cheap to manufacturer, compared to other designs. This mono-core design really limits what sort of sound reduction can be achieved. It also has downsides, some rather significant.
So. Since your last design really resembles rimfire suppressors commercially available in the USA, I’m interested to see what design you went with now. Specifically, how close are you to copying the patented designs of the company I work for?
From the looks of the pictures of the R3 the little holes in the base of the moderator are either vent holes or set screw locations. A bit of advice. Vent holes are for higher temperature applications and will lower the maximum possible reduction.
I’m interested to see what design you went with this time.
I was impressed to see you actually went to a suppressor forum and went through pictures and diagrams last time. Post up pictures of the new internals.
Did you talk to me? If so — could you ask your questions more clearly, English is not my native language so I could miss the point of what you have’ said.
Ed
The real Suppressor you copied and used in the original Matador has issues to begin with. These are well known in the Suppressor industry. The design also sacrifices performance to allow for cheaper production costs.
I’m interested to see what design you went with this time.
I was impressed to see you actually went to a suppressor forum and went through pictures and diagrams last time. Post up pictures of the new internals.
Hi, guys, I am glad to see that you have paid attention to what I am dong. In fact I didn’t want to announce R3 out of Russia since I have no idea when I will be able to send them out. The problems with the custom are still not solved but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel (hope that is not the locomotive 🙂 ) Some Matadors restyling 2.5 are still packed and waiting for to be moved out of Russia, the process is going on but much slower then I would like to see it, but, anyhow, hopefully all the planned Matadors will be send to U.S. sooner or later (hope sooner). The problem is not only with taking them out of Russia (we are solving it) the other problem to send them from Europe to U.S. during those stupid “fight to terrorism” we are registering a company in Finland to have legal opportunity to send it out of Europe. I know that is quite annoying but we have to come it through to have all the logistic system established and working.
As for R3, the main difference from the Matador restyling 2.5:
1. The barrel is not fixed to the reservoir any more, so the changing of the pressure is not effecting to the POI any more.
2. The barrel is forced stretched that makes POI more stable. Based on this two things the gun is more stable with POI when the temperatures is dramatically fast change, (like you have a gun in the warm car and have to walk out in the frost), the only changing POI is vertical line during to more dense air, no ways out of vertical. Was tested by freezing the gun in the fridge and heating it with the hair drying during the shooting.
3. The tread on the barrel is 12×1.25 instead of 10×1.25 that less influence to he inner surface of the barrel.
4. The barrel is completely made by Lothar Walther including the threads, very precise manufactured, polished inside at the LW factory. Testers reported that even after 2 thousand shots the cotton plug is clean after taking it through the barrel, no dirty and of course no parts of lead in the barrel as it could happen before. Besides we changed the twist of the groove and the inner diameter of the barrels based on the experiences we’ve made during last year. I consider that it influence to the stability of the shooting as well.
5. The new walnut stock, made in Russia and very high quality. That is default stock now.
6. New sound moderator, slightly better then the previous one.
7. In June we’ll begging to make piccatiny rail with 1.5 degrees incline especially for long range shooting.
8. It became heavier (the iron parts) for 184 grams. But I wouldn’t say that is noticeable.
That is all major changing for short.
Ed
The shroud looks to be a tad wider – fitting closer to the air tube. I’ll bet ol’ Ed made it even quieter. The covered barrel makes for a more complete looking finish, but it also makes it look like the gun may now be a bit harder to work on (remember Hoot’s barrel “gap” dilema?).
I’m glad to see the stock unchanged. Like others, I also want to know differences in the “guts”. In time, suppose. Hope all is well with Ed and his business.
I hope Ed solves the shipping problem.
I cant read Russian – is there a comparison of the specifications of r3 to r2.5 – weight, length? I like the wood look – hope we get the choice.
Sure wish we could get that plain wood finish stock!!!
Hoot
The wood is the first thing I noticed. Nice looking with just a little figure close to the butt and a good finish. It’s the first thing I notice in a quality air rifle.
Wonder where he get’s his wood? Turkey?
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Too many questions. Too many interruptions. Too many demands.
Let the man do his work.
Besides, the internet is running over with “experts” who are second guessing the who, what, when, where, how, and why of things.
We are not the ones working day and night, designing with one hand, holding off corrupt politicians with the other.
Anyone who reads his posts can see he does it all in his head. While he does listen to suggestions, an Edgun is always going to be “Ed’s Gun”.
Don’t see much of that anymore.
Hoot