Newbie questions about frame flex
Does frame flex go away completely if you use a very light hold while shooting the Condor? Or is there always some degree of frame flex (worsened if you use a tighter hold)?
Also, does the amount of frame flex increase if one is shooting the slugs or cast bullets (in the 100 fpe+ ranges)?
Assuming the Condor is working perfectly (no loose bushing screws, good scope, etc) and consistent light hold technique, is frame flex the culprit for occasional shifting POI’s (yet decent tight groups at 30 yards)?
Besides the Wok Guard and Maddog stocks, are there other commercially available fixes (for the less then mechanically inclined newbie like me)? Or would the Wok Guard and Maddog Stock be sufficient to solve the issue (so POI shift is not a problem for 30-50 yard ranges)?
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Viewing 13 replies - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
Joe, how the heck did ya fill that thing in? I thought about having it welded, but was concerned about warping from the heat!
RoachC. and ToFAST, I’m keeping a close Eye on you two! 😉
Mike.
Cant take credit for it. A man many of you know did it. Don Thompson. I never did ask how it was filled in. Since it was aluminum pieces that he cut and shaped…I assumed he welded them. The frame is as straight as it was from the factory. The one gripe is (since it is in .177 currently) there is not much room to fit your fingers inside to load a pellet. larger pellets would be easier and slugs could be used with a custom made seating tool no problem. But since my fingers are slender, I have become good at guiding those tiny .177’s in. Nice hearing from you again Mike!
One thing I’ll have to admit, WOK’s grip adapter sure looks a hell of a lot better! 😉
Joe, how the heck did ya fill that thing in? I thought about having it welded, but was concerned about warping from the heat!
RoachC. and ToFAST, I’m keeping a close Eye on you two! 😉
Mike.
A couple of weeks ago, i had Doug add a spacer to my top hat. I also had him clean up a groove in my breech for the oring that sits atop the top hat. To get to the breech’s oring groove, the rear of my gun had to be taken apart. So the forearm stock, the WOK15 trigger guard, the grip, the bottle collar as well as the breech and breech cocking knob had to come out. The issue was easily resolved and the gun was reassembled. To my surprise and during a QUICK outting, the first shot hit just about 1″ left of DEAD CENTER at 50 yards. And that was mostly due to the strong RIGHT TO LEFT wind. So
So the point to all this is………..the mods that doug and i did are MORE THAN holding up and i have yet to resight the gun in during an outting due to frame flex causing the POI to shift while the gun sits in my garage from week to week like i used to have to do.
Yes, the gun has frame flex. But as WOK said, DON”T DO IT meaning, don’t apply unnecessary pressure to the gun. IT IS hold sensitive and it will flex if you apply pressure.
Now in saying that i have to admit, back in the day when i first had my Airfoce, more than likely, i was applying uneccessary pressure on the gun and not knowing it. So i was always chasing POI changes. BUT NOW, now that i know, not only have i made structural changes to the gun, i also hold it just as WOK described. And in doing all that, i’m much happier with my Airforce gun. Ecstatic is a better choice of words. 257 cal kicks ass.
And i also agree with the fact that Airforce STILL could and should improve on the frame design by leaving more material in the frame were it’s needed. Hell, by getting some real engineers at these factories alone would improve on the finished products. Tolerances inside the gun along with its internal parts need to be MORE PRECISE and not vary from gun to gun. Its really pathetic that 2 people who buy 2 Airfoce guns cant successfully swap the majority of the parts.
But from what i understand from various sources, the lady who runs AirForce simply doesn’t think there is anything wrong with the gun the way it is. AND THAT’S A HUGE PROBLEM WITHIN ITSELF….lol
Joe,
That sure is a nice looking rifle.
RC
I really think that this modified frame will ultimately become an accurate long range shooter (With Doug’s help of course). I think I will send this frame to Doug (when the time comes for him to work on my tank and valve) couple the this frame to a TJ barrel with a one piece bushing, etc. and it may be a take down, long range medium game killing machine! 😎 !!! It seems to have had all the necessary areas reinforced (filled back in) to eliminate frame flex. The only concern I would have is that a long barrel will be hanging pretty far out the end since the frame was cut down. Hopefully the one piece bushing will counteract that. And a nice wokgaurd to finish things off!
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If you want to help assist in frame flex issues Add 3 more barrel bushing in even spacing or a one piece bushing as Tof has done
It will help SOME along with the mad dog stock and it should help out quite a bit
The long range cast bullet rifle can be summed up in the state of the art rifle designed for just that purpose, the
Haley Scadalous .257.
It is a 250 FPE quarterbore designed for one thing, printing tiny groups at 300 yards.
It was designed from the beginning to do this, not modified. A Condor or a Talon SS is great for what it was designed for.
RC
Thanks for all the info. I am always impressed at “you’s” guys knowledge base. I think its great that you pioneers all are pushing this AF rifle beyond its limit. While I think there is currently a limited market for highly accurate long distance-high power-cast bullet shooting air rifles, I hope it will catch on. I think if the rifle can shoot high power (100 fpe plus) accurately at long distances, imagine what it can do at short distances. And I think there is definitely a market for us shooters who want to discretely hit our backyard critters with lots-o-power.
If you consistently gently cradle the gun and do not apply lateral pressure while shouldering the gun the frame flex is not an issue.
My WokGard 15 will help decrease the frame flex by adding rigidity to the frame while shouldering the rifle normally.
If you apply undo lateral pressure the gun will flex because it is aluminum and will flex with force.
With the WokGard 15 and a normal light shouldering of the gun frame flex is not an issue…. Give it a tight squeeze and you can make it flex with enough force…. don’t do that 🙄
A full length wood stock can help the frame flex issue but now you no longer have a take down rifle. Why buy a take down rifle and remove that feature?
That is like buying a convertible car and welding on the roof.
Wood stocks while helping flex while shouldering but if you you rest the front of the frame on anything the frame still will flex with the pressure on the frame.
Also wood retains moisture and will expand and contract due to the environment which will result in accuracy problems as well as the weather changes. That is why match rifles went to fully laminated stocks made under high pressure to make the wood impregnated with epoxy. And even then they still had problems with it so now the high end rifles have all metal frames to eliminate changes in the wood.
If you have a stock gun and want to eliminate frame flex…. Just gently cradle it. If you want to shoot and not think to much about it add the WokGard 15 and gently hold your rifle. If you want to hold the gun firmly add a full length stock, but you also add significant weight and no longer have the take down rifle feature.
Remember your rifle is not your dick… squeezing it hard is not better. Hold it gently you ham fisted goons 😀
Now how badass does this gun look? 😀
Wandering on you is it?
Say it isn’t so ❗ 😛
It is a normaland consistant problem, some say it does not happen, but too many AF shooters experience it to chalk it up to operator error or scope error.
Mostly it seems to be a fill level phenomenon, you might shoot a tank full from 3000 down to 2000, and see if it is doing it, then just fill and shoot for a shorter string at what ever sweet spot you find when you need precise accuracy.
You somewhat correct also about the cast bullets, although it is not the cast bullets themselves that cause the frame flex, it is the heavier hammer and springs we use to get enough valve effeciency to launch them at decent speeds.
The AF design has 5 inches of barrel hanging out there with heavy springs and hammers supported by two rediculously attached barrel busings, both against the barrel and the frame. And a hammer and spring and plastic breech impacting and bouncing off each on firing.
So things flex and they move around.
Again Dyotat is a big help, the bushing assembly he made for Tofazu and the heavier TJ barrels I think and hope negate a lot of this.
Add to this the two piece stock design that has never been a winner with PB’s and stellar accuracy.
Knifemaker is also correct, those design genious did in fact practically cut the frame in half when a smaller port would have done better.
The Maddog stock with full support is probably the single best option, far better than the WOK guard which does help some but I can still get noticablable laser/reticle movement by just stressing the front and rear of my WOK guard with my hands at the same time, although I hear less metal is removed on current production and that helps. I have used the Maddog stock but my rifle with a lot of success but my Talon SSS wears a WOK Guard, to me it is a matter of taste.
I have tried the springer hold as some here have, I found it strung shots around my steel plate at 150 yards like a mad womans shit.
I have found from holding my rifle in different positions and using different techniques while using the laser and comparing it against the reticle for movement caused by flex, that a firm grip on a WOK Guard mounted Houge grip with my shooting hand and the off hand holding the carrying handle and scope while firmly giving pressur to my shoulder works for me. But it takes practice with the laser and reticle to achieve it.
Get a cheap laser, mount it in front of the scope on the tube rail portion and see what hold works the best for you.
What we cast bullet shooters really need is a improved frame.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Those that do not notice frame flex, aren’t shooting a lot for precision at longer ranges. It sticks out like a sore thumb at extended ranges.
I like to see groups at 80+ yards well under an inch. Infact, I’m not satisfied if they aren’t under 1/2 inch at this range. At 100, I’m wanting under an inch. Not sometimes when lucky. ALWAYS in good conditions.
Most people are satisfied with 3″ to 4″ at 100. I have many times been told “you cant’ shoot a “BB” gun that far. Well, some of us here have disproved that years ago. RoachCreek, Mamacracken, Tofast, My Self, and a small hand full of others. I’ve taken several Tree-Rats this season at 150 to 100 yards. If your gun isn’t capable, this isn’t possible other than by accicent. And I don’t consider going out and collecting game for my supper an accident. (For me, eating is never an accident!) 😆 😉
Yes, the WOK grip will help some. The Mad-Dog, though much more expensive, (especialy the full length versions), will do a fine job.
What I want to know, is why in hell won’t AirForce fix the problem? It would be easier than what they are doing now. They take far too much material out of the loading port area, and top rail. Simple fix. STOP DOING IT!!! 👿 It would take less time, cost less to produce, and provide a much improved product! 😕
i have 2 condors one in .22 one in .25 havent noticed any frame flex just my 0.02
Viewing 13 replies - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
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Thanks Guy! 😀 Good to be Back!!!
Hate those tiny .177’s. Always loosing them, while trying to seat e’m! 😉 Love a .25. May-be a .303 in the future! 😎
Mike