R.L. Shroud for TalonP (Only) – End cap contact
I’m trying to diagnose a problem with my TalonP and the 6″ R.L. Shroud.
I have installed this exactly as the installation video shows (albeit I have the 6″ and not the one in the video). I have visually inspected the shroud installation by looking from the breech end of the bore, while it’s on the gun. All looks good. Clear concentric alignement of endcap hole and bore.
I’m shooting 27.8gr domed pellets. And before the shroud, the TalonP shoots tight groups. After the installation of the new shroud bushing, but before the shroud was put on, the TalonP shoots tight groups. But after I install the shroud, and alignment inspection verified good, my groups open up. Upon inspection, I see that the endcap is being lightly struck by the pellet.
I don’t really see how anything could be installed incorrectly, as there is a fixed mechanical alignment that I have no control over. This alignment is totaly controlled by the mounting of the front shroud bushing. Once that’s attached to the barrel, the shroud is aligned when screwed on. The thing I notice about this is the front shroud bushing has a bit of slop after it’s on the barrel and before the screw is tightened. Unlike the video, it comes off the barrel rather easily. That looseness could account for the misalignment. The instructions say to tighten the screw, then back off slightly.
To give a visual of what I’m saying (I’ll try to make a video), with the shroud screwed to the bushing AND before I tighten this set screw in the bushing, I can rock the shroud back and forth and see it go from misaligned, to aligned, to misaligned, when on the barrel. I would expect the bushing, when on the barrel, would have no (or very minimal) movement, when trying to rock it off axis. And since the instructiosn say not to tighten it too much, I don’t see how any alignment is forced.
Let me expand this thought. Imagine a barrel, a bushing and the shroud. Imagine that the inside diameter of the bushing was .6″ and the barrel was .5″. If the barrel was centered in the bushing, the shroud would would be aligned with the barrel, when attached to the bushing. But since the only thing that can fix the alignment, is the set screw, as it’s tightened, the barrel pushes to the other side of the bushing, misaligning the barrel with the shroud. Now, if the bushing hole was tight tolerance, such that it exactly fit the barrel, with no slop, then even if the bushing wasn’t tightened, the shroud and barrel would still be aligned.
When I screw in the shroud, to the bushing, and put the bushing on the barrel, there is wiggle in the shroud, with respect to the barrel. And the set screw wouldn’t be able to do anything but force it into a misaligned position. Depending on how much slop, the pellet might still make it through the hole in the endcap, without touching. But if this slop is too great, it might very well impact the shroud. When I did my visual, after everything was snugged up, alignment looked good. But I’m wondering if eye visual is good enough to notice any misalignment.
For those who have the TalonP (12″ barrel, .25 cal) and the R.L. Shroud:
1) Does your front bushing fight snug, before tightening the screw?
2) Have you ever experienced pellets striking the end cap?
3) If you had any of these problems, what fixed it?
The mfg. is sending me a new end cap, that is a little larger than the one I have. The one he’s sending is .284 dia. Mine is .277. He did tell me that some were done too small and not sure how it happened. I’m just trying to understand this alignement process. It’s really so simple. Just don’t see how it “forces” alignement by doing it right, with the slop I have. I’ll make a video to show what I mean.
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Viewing 13 replies - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
Glad she’s working now!
Yep, you need a CF tank. That scuba will run your legs off getting fills! Been there, Done That! 😆
Knife
Yeah they do.
I need to get a carbon fiber tank next week. My Spin-loc arrived for my CondorSS and it was completely empty. Took by 3000psi scuba tank to 2800 in one complete fill. 😉 Now I have to go refill it in the morning.
JSB’s fly nice, don’t they?
Wildfire
Indeed. I fired of about 25 pellets today and liked the results. Well, that is, considering my trigger jerk. I’m not as steady as I used to be. But this was my last 5 shot group, with a good hold. I actually think I can do better. It was close and I could see the hold and trigger control improving. Just need to move the group to the left and down a smidge. 😉
Since I shimmed the bushing, I have had zero flyers. I hope this tape holds up over time though, being somewhat soft, compared to the barrel and bushing. But for now, my problem looks solved. Randy is sending me a new endcap to replace the one that took the hit.
Thanks to all that commented.
Wildfire
My JSB Exact arrived today. 25.39 gr. I also have some other JSB coming tomorrow, I hope. Ordered a bunch of everything, just to see what works.
Woo-Hoo! Love it when a plan works!
I have one shroud here that slides into the frame all the way down to the bushing. It’s slightly loose. I used Alu. tape the same way. Works just fine.
Looks like you got it fixed. Your groups might tighten up even more when you shoot the JSB’s. Good job!
Wildfire
Tada!
I decided to try and remove some of the slack, while waiting for a ne bushing from Randy. He said he’d look for a tighter one. He believes my barrel is smaller than normal. It’s .475 (exactly). I believe it’s spec’d at a 12mm barrel which makes this about right (.472 +/-). Regardless, the solution seemed to be a better fit.
I bought some 1mil copper tape and put 2 layers. Took all the slack out of the fit. Everything went back together snugly. Checked the bore and endcap and they seemed aligned.
I test fired the gun and had zero flyers. Had to make a few shots to get the gun back to zero. And then fired 11 shots at a new target. I could have taken my time and got the pellets a little closer but this is a good enough test to know that I’m onto a solution. No contact with the endcap now.
The group isn’t as tight as it could be. I was kind of in a hurry and my trigger control was a little rushed. Yeah right. 🙂 I was more interested in getting the photos and updating the post, than popping doubles. 😉 But previous to this fix, I couldn’t keep them within 2″ of each other, with the shroud on. See, I was so rushed I can’t even count. The group that says 4th group should say 3rd. 😉 I’d say I fired about 21 shots in this test, with no flyers. The other 10 were when I was sighting in my Vortex.
The important thing is there is now no contact with the shroud. Just need to get a smaller I.D. shroud bushing, from Randy.
It does sound as if your bushing is a little too loose. Never read so much describing such a simple problem. Most would get “way” bored reading it before ever getting to the point! Even your Vid, you repeat yourself over and over.
How did you measure the barrel and bushing? Is the bbl out of spec.? Or is it the bushing. No doubt R&L would machine up a smaller bushing for you. Or you could tighten it your self.
There is also the possibility that the bore in the bbl. isn’t’ concentric with the outside dia. of the bbl. It happens more than one would think!
And your measurement as follows; Barrel: .475″
Bushing (ID): .483″ (+.008″)
Original bushing (ID): .477-.478 (+.002-.003)
These measurements don’t seem right at all.
KnifeMaker
Wildfire
Already in contact with Randy. Showed him the video and he says my barrel diameter is smaller than normal. He’s going to look around for a bushing with smaller ID. I have a couple of workarounds.
1) To put a thin ring of tape around the barrel, to take up that slack. Perhaps some thin copper tape, if I can find something that’s .003″ thick that would be perfect and give the same spacing as the original bushing I.D..
2) To put the old bushing on temporarily, right behind the shroud bushing. That should index the barrel to the correct position. The original bushing is very snug to barrel. All of the bushings fit snug to the frame, so using the 3rd bushing temporarily, should center the barrel at the front. It’s just for test.
I have every confidence this will be resolved. It’s no nightmare at all. In fact, it’s kind of interesting. A lot of justification to tear down the gun and measure things. Kind of fits in with my engineering background. 😉
PS: Totally off-topic. I have one browser where the text in these posts is center justified. Very annoying. Another the text is left justified. But I can’t find any setting that controls that. Anyone know how to get left-justified thread content?
I just watched your video. That bushing is waaaaaaay too loose in the barrel. You should call R&L and talk to Randy. Maybe even mention your video so he can see for himself what’s going on. Randy is a great guy to work with and I’m sure he can do something to help you. What a nightmare this has been for you.
Wildfire
Video showing looseness in shroud bushing.
Barrel: .475″
Bushing (ID): .483″ (+.008″)
Original bushing (ID): .477-.478 (+.002-.003)
If screw is tight, the .008″ gap is all on one side of barrel.
If screw is loose, there is nothing to lock the barrel concentric with endcap.
At least this is the way it seems.
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Just placed an order for a 97 cu. ft. carbon fiber tank. That should keep me supplied in air for a while. 😉