R3M mag advancement system analysis and improvemet attempts

Just as a lead in here I am aware of and have thoroughly read the very good writeup by Wingman NZ that might seem to some to address this issue but what I or some of us are seeing in clearly different issue with incomplete indexing of the mag and the forward movement of the bolt finishing the alignment. I would say when this happens the pellet port on the mag is only 70 to 80 % aligned with the Barrel and the probe has to kind of fight it into position to where it finishes aligning and the pellet can enter the barrel.

In no way do I want this to be a bitch or complain thread on Edguns as I love mine personally and think it is a whole level of cool above and beyond the other brands, or I would have bought them instead, ” Just My Opinion ” , My gun is working but not nearly as it should as I understand it. I actually do expect !! the bolt and indexing system to operate clean slick and smooth. I also think it is expected that the mag should index fully into the detented position to be ready to advance the bolt straight and directly through the pellet port of the magazine and push the pellet into the breech without having to wiggle the mag into position as the bolt moves forward. I like Ed’s fast shooting video of 36 rounds !! Cool video and I believe they will work like that or Ed would not have published it !!! I decided to take mine apart, clean it up and analyze it’s workings this evening, and see where the dragging feeling is coming from and the reason for not fully indexing into position every time. Thus far, I see two things that can make a difference, one to address each of the above items and that is what I am going to try to illustrate here.

Let me say this is me and my gun. A review and tune up of sorts to the rotary functionality of the magazine in good old EDgun R3M Matador # 0534 The things I do are mine to accept the results good or bad, If my mods are good I will share the experience for others if they wish to work on their guns, these mods. may or may not be effective as a fix or improvement, and those answers will bear out in the end. If you are having troubles like myself and others here have described and you gun works like mine and is less than perfect in this area you might be interested, on the other hand if you gun is perfect in in this area be happy and this work/thread or effort may be of no interest to you.

Here goes with my initial evaluating what is happening and what i think needs to happen to make it index properly and operate more smoothly.

Area #1: My cam lever looks to me like it is not shaped as needed at the point/spot in which it engages the mag wheel tooth. As said above there is a limited side stroke available to do the work here and there also looks like to me we can have no or very little wasted movement and it looks as well that when the cam lever strokes out fully and is against the inside wall of the breech block that the mag needs to be in position and the detent holding it in that position. To that end, the tip of the cam lever blade looks to be hand tuned as in ground in on final assy. or tune up maybe. I can see kind of rough grinding marks as opposed to the nice polish on all other working faces. I will have a new one wire EDM’s out Monday and add some extra in this area to be available to tune it in with. If I had a spare I would just tig some hard steel to the face of it this weekend and work it in with a little fitting of it’s shape but I will have it duplicated first and work on the new one. Better to keep my stock and original part and and work on the new ones in case my logic is not fact.
“Update “ : After giving this some deeper thought, there logically needs to be some clearance between the cam lever and the mag tooth to allow it to slightly float freely as the bolt travels through the mag in both directions. The amount of clearance here is not critical unto itself but it does effect the amount of engagement and that has a direct effect on far it can move the mag as it indexes so that it can be fully in position when the cam lever hits it’s stop.

Pic #1:

In this first picture you can see that there is a gap between the cam lever and the mag tooth, I am pointing to it with a small hex wrench, it is my current belief that this gap is nearly equal to the lack of rotation that is present after the blade lever fully shifts to the limit of it’s travel with the bolts retraction. The following picture will be with the bolt pulled fully back to show the mag position after the blade lever indexes the mag and the last picture is with the mag rolled a little further by hand and into it’s detent and proper firing position with the bolt forward. I think these pictures speak for them selves and I believe the mag should be in proper position in it’s detent before the bolt is stroked forward. I would like to hear differing opinions, either way as I am open minded as too other peoples thoughts. Chime in !!

Pic #2: and pic #3: Note the difference in position of the mag tooth in reference to the inner side wall of the breech. Pic #2: is where it stops, Pic #3: is where it needs to stop. Contrary to what it looks like the blade in Pic#: 2 is fully traveled and against the inside wall of the bolt breech. If the cam blade carried the mag further before running out of stroke, the mag could and would fall into it’s detents and all would be good in my R3M world. I think I can make this happen with a little profile change to the tip of the blade. ” Just A Thought ?? ” Could it be possible that some of us have .22 cal cam levers that are tuned to stroke the 10 shot mag 36 degrees with each index, instead of ones tuned for the 9 shot .25 mag that moves 40 degrees with each index ? Any thought out there ?? This could be an honest mistake and looks likely that my lever would provide the proper amount of rotation for a mag that needed 4 degrees less than mine needs, according my calibrated eyeball that is.

Area # 2: Is that the bolt motion is not moving smoothly and I am thinking it is the rubbing of the disc area that is trapped between the bolt breech block and the retaining plate, this seems like the spot that is providing most or all of the un-smoothness or dragging feel so more analysis is needed here.

Pic 4, is the tip of the cam lever showing the ground area I spoke of above that contacts the mag. tooth. this is where I will add material.

Pic 5 is of the little pin that the bolt carries rearward that does double duty as it cocks the hammer and side shifts the cam lever to index the mag, I has one of the two surfaces that is causing the draging feel I spoke of above. The bronze or brass bushing in this picture is free to rotate as designed in this assembly and does so quite well. The finish on the face of this part seems to be kind of black oxide or anodized and not necessarily polished or smooth where it rides on the breech when assembled, although It would in time certainly get better, I have cycled my bolt a few hundred times as an assembly out of the gun before tearing it down so I could see the begining of wear in marks if any, and it is wearing in slightly, in this area, you can see the black finish in the picture, I think some polishing on this part is in order in my case, ” my opinion ”

Pic 6 is of the area in the breech block where this flange shown on this pin assy. runs face to face on these mating flanges. In my case the breech once again is oxided, anodized or parkerized just like the outer pretty surfaces. I am more concerned in this case as this surface finish is applied to the aluminum breech and polish would seem the answer but the aluminum may not ever like the the steel long term from a coefficient of friction standpoint and the lubricants used might just be the most proper treatment for this situation, Were not talking your dads Rem Oil here !! Ed left the black finish on the breech and and the round carrier part and lubed it and there might just be a good reason, rougher surfaces hold on to or retain lubricant better than polished surfaces in some cases. There is plenty of detailed labor going on in this area on Ed’s part so I doubt he left this little bit of polishing out from a cost or laziness standpoint. I am going to sleep on this one, but will more than likely put some compound on these two flanges in the morning and lap the slider and the breech into liking one another as good as possible. Then I am torn between lubing with antiseize or moly paste like others brag on. I have had amazing results with antiseize on aluminum -vs- steel situations so I will probably go that way unless someone offers a better idea here. There is metal included antiseizes and non metal antiseizes available as well too, I have always used copper or aluminum filler based but maybe not here. not sure but I am thinking those are made to help deal with high temperatures. I think with frequent inspection for a while I can overt and problems either way. Give me your thoughts on this and up to this point. I will lap with compound, re lop with aluminum based antisieze, clean and lube with the non metal version for assembly. I need to order some 65% moly paste, can’t find it locally. I’d like to try both.

I think the combination of both areas being improved, if both successful, will make this a very sweet, slick and smooth working design. I do love the beautifully simplicity of Ed’s design of how this is to all work together and I believe it will soon.

I am a new EDgun owner but have followed closely since TED’S first videos, ya, he got me hooked. I love the unique experience of having an Edgun and Ed’s gun designs in general. Once again ” beautifully simple “. At least for me I realize these are unique low production, small company manufactured firearms and I am not going to say that I am all that concerned by this, Ed will offer fixes in time or we can work on them ourselves, as well but in the end It is a simple mechanical device that is not working quite right but the design has proven to work properly so it is fixable with understanding and a little effort or action and it will be fixed. I will be sorting mine out and report my findings and progress here, especially if I think it can help someone else on this forum. I am new here but it feels a little like a family and that is part of the Edgun experience I am finding out. I kind of like it when it get dumb and raw too !!, Kind of reminds me why I have an 02 Harley Road king out in my shop I can never part with. Good friend and riding buddies.

The Moping around and talking about it ends now !!! and the fixing begins. ” I hope …….. we’ll see 🙂 ”

Ed, if you are following this thread feel free to chime in, You designed this mechanism and you fully understand when it is working properly and maybe my pictures are good enough to help diagnose this small issue.