The long road to accuracy….my story
Got a Condor with heavy hammer and R&L shroud. Bought some Hunter Supply 83gr .251s and sized to .2505. Accuracy was crap. Several inch group at 50 with wild flyers. Aint even worth putting a picture up of the groups.
With advice from the guys here, got dougs hammer and valve (NICE!). Still shot like junk…shroud was clipping. Removed shroud for all further testing. So I followed the advice here and chopped off the choke (1″), slugged the barrel (.2545″), and opened up the lead in (.255 reamer). I tried the 87gr .251 just for fun. 2” group at 50 yards with erratic velocity. No surprise.
Bought some .257 63gr Hunter Supply and sized through a homemade sizer to .255. Gave it a few shots and ended up with this. Here’s the 50 and 100 yard groups (~2 and 3″ respectively). Getting better!
Still not satisfied, I ordered a lyman 257420. The Hunter Supply bullets had badly distorted bases from Hunter Supply sizing operation. They didnt even stand straight (before I sized them) when set on a table. I had a chance to MAAS the barrel and polish it up. Meanwhile, Doug gave me some RJ Porter bullets and some hollowpoints to give a try. They were doing better but not great. These are 100 yard groups.
I finally had a chance to mold a few lymans(15.388lb lead + .03lb 60/40 lead/tin solder) ~72 grains. I found what the gun really likes. Im satisfied with this as there was easily a 5mph wind with gusts.
My current setup: 72gr lyman at 150 ftlb (~950 fps) fill at 3100psi, 5 shots with dougs hammer and valve, 23” barrel (talon, not TJ), stock air tank.
I bored the baffles out to .3125 per instructions here and will probably get a little trigger time in this afternoon (maybe) with the shroud back on. I’ll keep yall posted. Hopefully the accuracy stays (not looking at getting a TJ barrel, hoping to enjoy shooting the gun for a bit first.
Put in the hands of a better shooter and no wind conditions, I think this gun could really tighten the groups at 100 yards, but I am happy…for now!
Things I learned:
-Guys here rock!
-Guys here know their stuff
-Guys here are EXTREMELY helpful (I can’t stress this enough…DOUG, Roachcreek, Tofazfou, etc.)
-Chop off the last inch of the barrel
-Slug it
-Use a good quality bullet that stabilizes at the rate you push it.
-Listen, listen, and LISTEN to the advice given from here. I incrementally did these steps on purpose (minus the jacked up shroud alignment) to document the accuracy changes. Hope it helps someone else out.
Ok, off lunch break…back to work!
All Replies
Jeremy,
I was good for 5 or 6 shots at 100 yards, but if knew where to hold as the pressure dropped, I could keep most of them on a squirrel for 15, but again it was a lateral group meant for a full budda shot.
Good to see you get to where you want, it actually took me a year and a half, mainly because I was told the choke was not a problem. Once I realized it was the problem and got enough balls to cut it off, and you know how hard that decision is, things improved quickly.
Now of course you know I got mostly 20 shot groups within 1/2 inch at 300 yards with a fill, from the hip, with my eyes closed, in the wind, and just like Assman, it was when I had to poop.
Seriously, I got results with both a 23 inch barrel and a 17 inch barrel. I went thru four molds, a 25 acp RCBS mold, way too small at .251, a 257420 which I had not learned about Imperial sizing wax to use it properly, a RanchDog 25 acp mold that was .261 and the LBT which I ordered to my specs, but came as what Veral Smith thought I needed and eventually went back to the 257420.
Today I revisited my 1-14 barrel, cleaned it and sighted it in with the 1 inch Leupold 4.5×14 that I had borrowed for the Ranger 45,mounted the flash hider and sighted it in at 280 yards. I got 21 of 20 shots on a 8 inch gong in pretty god winds with the 257420 solid.
Gawd I love cast bullet air guns.
The final success came with the 257420 sized to 256 in the 17 inch barrel.
Ill pull it down a little. Might have to change the shim and leave the preload the same on the spring. I do more hunting than long range shootinG sotethering isn’t really a viable option at the moment. Ill give it a shot and keep yall posted.
Knife and Jeremy,
The 257’s shooting Lyman’s tend to be good at about 900 on UP. The reason why I said to lower the speed was 1st, at 950 fps, Jeremy could afford to back DOWN and by doing this, it would give him more shots per fill cause of the stock sized bottle and the groups might tighten up because of it. He might just get 5 shots now as opposed to 2-3. The stock bottle is really small in volume for the 257 when you get over 900+++ fps. But I know the gun is accurate enough at 900 fps.
With big bores, the main killer in overall accuracy is when you shoot a group from a single fill. The volume is not there so therefore the consistency from shot to shot is compromised.
Jeremy, you could also TETHER your gun like RC does. That’s helps 100 fold with accuracy. RC’s groups from his tethered gun is a testament to just what i’m saying……….
Tofazfou, its the stock 1:16 barrel. I tried lowering the fps a little by cranking down the power wheel a little but got a case of vavle lock a little. I need to fine tune it some and see if I can get the velocity evened out.
I shot with the shroud on the other day. It seemed my groups would move around and I was chasing the holes with the scope. I tried a super light hold and everything. Seems like the gun wants to shift around a couple inches at 100 from day to day shooting. Wonder if the shroud is putting different pressure on the barrel where it rides in the frame.
I’ll get it on the chrony and see what I can do.
Tof, have you gained accuracy with the 420 by gioint down in fps?
I tried some of the spire points that RJ sent me, and 😯 😀 Yeah baby!!! :8: Didn’t try the fps though.
Knife
Jeremy,
Hey bud! I would be interested in seeing how much of an IMPROVEMENT you get if you lower your fps to 900 fps using the lymans.
Overall Consistency will improve and accuracy just might also. With more FPS consistency, long range groups like at 100 might tighten up pretty good. That stock bottle really shows its ass with these slugs and about 900-950 fps. But at 950 fps, its loosing some volume quickly.
Is the twist rate of the LW 1 in 16″? Or slower?
In my AirForce guns that I tried to shoot cast bullets in with the LW barrel, I had a custom LBT mold made and it did all right, but when Tofasfou started shooting the 257420 I agave it a try, oddly enough I had a almost new mold.
I had purchased it months earlier and found when I tried to size the bullets down I had badly deformed bullets so I gave up on it, then Jerry of Surefire suggested I try Imperial Sizing wax. Later when I revisited that mold for the LW, I used Imperial sizing wax to keep from getting trailing lead when I sized and I found the accuracy to be much better than the LBT.
Joe has that mold now and I replaced it with a new one and had it HPed.
With Tedd and Mike shaving the gas check portion off the mold to get it around 56 grains or so, it may be the ideal bullet for the LW in a Condor.
What size are you sizing to or ordering for the surefires? No problems at all with R and L holding up to dougs power.
Do yourself a favor and buy a lyman 257420 mold. That’s when my groups tightened. A barrel polish really seemed to help too.
Not sure if you can get surfires anymore. I think they were on hold for a bit but may be up and going again. Don’t bother with the hunter supply. You might have luck with them, but they were awful in my gun.
Look up millers formula and see if the surefires are stabilized (<1.5) at 830fps.
Maybe someone else will chime in. I’m still getting the hang of it all, but its at least the experience I had.
Glad the post helped a little.
Thank you for posting your findings. I too have had difficulties with consistency (with Surefire slugs) with my 0.25 condor (dechoked 25 caliber LW barrel, Doug’s 101 gram hammer, TT valve, TT shroud, Maddog Hunter long stock). When I slugged my barrel, it came out to 0.254. After I clean the barrel, it will shoot the 71 grain surefire slugs in 0.75 inch groups at 28 yards. But, maybe after a week or so the groups will become erratic (2-3 inch groups at 28 yards). Then, i go back and clean the barrel (and the process repeats). I fill to 3100 psi and shoot only 4 shots down to 2950 (slugs go around 830 fps). I used loctite on my barrel bushings (because the barrel bushing screws would untighten maybe after 10 shots or so).
With Doug’s new valve, will your R&L shroud be able to withstand the new and increased power? I have heard that the TT shroud may not be able to withstand the increased power from Doug’s valve.
Since I do not have the time to my own cast slugs, I’m hoping that there is a commercially available slug that will give tight groups with my 0.254 caliber LW barrel.
this is what I used.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_363779-39963-DS1004101_0__
Theres another version but not sure what it would do or what difference it would make.
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=363776-39963-DNS104101&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3550502&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=rel&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1
Yep, I am happy my expectations were a reliable 5 shots in a 1.5″ group at 100. Wanted the heaviest grain bullet (that stabilizes) around 950fps. Im sure better wind conditions, better shooter, shot top off, and all the other variables can help no doubt.
Yep, you werent the only one that mentioned I used too much tin, so I wondered if I had said it wrong in the original post.
Hopefully I can shoot with the shroud on and prove the 1″ group is the norm and not a fluke. Dougs valve is great and that little lyman bullet does wonders!
Well that is pretty good accuracy for five shots in a row from that small bottle and at such a high fpe. I bet you will improve once you get your sd lowered. Keep tuning! 😎
I thought it was more tin than that…sorry, I am not a caster, not yet 🙂
I tried the top off between shots but didn’t see any real improvement. I’m still getting a little less consistent fps than I like. Even with topping off between shots. I credit some to having a small tank so shot count is low. Haven’t tried more than 5 shots at 100 yet.
I used silicone oil from lowes over by the tools section. Yes I polished the barrel with MAAS (like flitz). Can take a pic of it when I get home.
Guys, I used .3 (.03 was a typo) pounds of solder to 15.4 lb lead. Solder was a 60/40 mix so I only had .75% tin. Less than 1%. 30:1 is 3%. I figured that was on the low end?
Didn’t get off work til 11pm last night and this week will
Probably end the same way. Hopefully can get a little trigger time with the shroud on soon.
Nice journey right there and that surely is half the fun 😀
Why did you use so much tin in your mixture? I am curious to see how she will shoot with more lead?
Your groups will also tighten up if you try to keep an even fill pressure on each shot. Try filling to the same pressure for each shot just to test….
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RC, these 54 gr. 257420’s are doing GREAT! I am shooting them over 1000 fps right now, but may tune it down as Tof suggested just to see what improvement the shot counts comes too. But the ligher weight is already added another 2-4 more shots as it is. Soooooooo— 😀