Threading the Condor Frame
I’ve finished the tooling and have done a few frames now. They are beautiful! Will get a few pics up when I get home.
Threading the LDC into the frame has its distinct advantages. For those of you with 12″ barrels, you don’t really have much to worry about; the barrel sticks out only a couple inches past the forward bushing. If you have a 17″-18″ barrel, it stops right near the front of the condor/TSS frame. Anything longer, of course, sticks out past the frame. Here is the rub:
Pretty much everyone out there making LDCs have a hard time mounting the ldc to the frame; some of the problem is that the frames come in all sorts of sizes, varying in internal diameter by several thousands, and also because the inside (and outside) of frame isn’t exactly round. So they make a best guess as to diameter and hope it fits, or else you have to send them your frame so they can custom make an ldc to fit. Other problems are also: the end of the frame isn’t square to the bore (I’ve found them to be waaaaaaaaaay off in some instances) or the end of the frame may have been damaged or nicked.
So, when they make LDCs, they just make a slip fit collar and use the little grub screw to hold the LDC in place. Some of you have had prior issues with the screw hole “migrating” due to repeated use. Others have had ldcs shoot off or damaged. The reason is, this collar-grubscrew thing is nowhere near adequate. It DOES NOT hold the ldc in good alignment with the barrel; it would flap around like a sheet in a gale storm if not for one thing: people making ldcs realize the weakness of the collar design and about 1/3 or so of the way up, they put a second close fitting collar INSIDE the ldc. This second collar goes around the barrel and grips it, and actually aligns the ldc and keeps it from flapping around. This is a good thing, because if it weren’t there, the ldc would be held only by the rear collar/grub screw. But it is far, far from desirable.
What you have is tension on the barrel… your ldc is held in alignment by the barrel itself. The barrel is no longer a ‘free floating’ design. If you have one of these ldcs, DON’T rest the ldc against something when you shoot, especially near the forward end. It WILL change the point of impact.
This is one of the reasons I bothered to develop the tooling to thread the front of the condor frame. When I thread the frame, the first step is to TRUE the inside of the frame so it is absolutely, positively ROUND so the threads will also be exactly round. I also true the END of the frame, so it is EXACTLY perpendicular to the bore. And believe me, I was surprised at how far off one of my frames was. It wasn’t even a straight cut; it was sort of like a pie crust, wavering back and forth, up and down, in and out.
The quality of the threading is pure Class III; when screwing the threaded ldc into the threaded condor frame, there is a silky smooth, slight resistance that tells me there is no play, a perfect fit. When the threaded ldc locks up against the frame, it stops SUDDENLY, immediately; there is no draaaag and then slow tightening. This tells me the two surfaces (forward edge of the frame and trailing edge of the ldc-extrusion) are EXACTLY parallel to each other, ALL of it comes into contact around the entire circumference at the same time and ensures perfect alignment of the ldc-extrusion). If you have ever played with custom or mil spec hardware, where everything is single point threaded, you know what I mean.
Because the ldc-extrusion is held in place and in alignment by the threads and by the above forward edge-trailing edge contact, there is no need for the second collar inside the ldc. The barrel can again be free floated, the way it is supposed to be. Accuracy improves. The gun itself is more robust, the extrusion is no longer a fragile piece bracing itself against the barrel; it is now solidly bonded to the frame itself. There are no adverse effects; the gun can still be disassembled as normal, by sliding the components forward and out without taking off the ldc; it stays on as a permanent piece of the gun.
aloha,
walt
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Yep, that sounds like a plan!
GREAT Work there Walt!!! 😀
Mike
Walt, if that secondary shroud arrangement works well it could really tame down those broom handles on the 24” barrels. Sometimes I think about the extra power Im missing With my 17 1/2” .25 barrel. If you do some testing in that reguard please let us know. I think your on to something there 😎
Tag,
Keep it going Walt, you are doing some awesome work there. I might be interested (not now, but in the near future), in having you build me (if you were willing) a threaded frame/ldc full picatinny custom big bore .308!!! (or true big bore caliber, who knows?) 😈
Man, just when I thought my future “fantasy” rifle buckets were “sealed off”. Say no Walt so I don’t have to start up another bucket 😎
Thats very nice Walt !
Thanks everyone! Did I tell you I LOVE the screw on LDC?? It is just so solidly mounted, changes the whole feel of the gun. This particular one isn’t complete yet. The strange thing is, the super short 3.5″ ldc (give or take) so far has been so effective, I haven’t bothered to put the “fat boy” on, over it. Seems to work well enough with just the stubbie… I have to do more testing.
I purchased 2 brand spanking new condors, they are brand new and still in the box, haven’t even opened them yet. I’ll be threading those and adding ldcs, if anyone is interested in a new gun send me an email. I’ll try to post pics; trying to find a powdercoater to give these new extension tubes a nice finish first. One of those new guns will be a .258; the other will probably be a .25 and you can call and harass Jerry to send you some heavy slugs.
Before anyone asks: no, I have NOT forgotten my promise to develop some picatinny rails for these things. Riverside, I am still making the tooling to hold the long, skinny lengths of aluminum stock so I can make full length picatinny rails that will go onto my extension tubes/LDCs at the 12, 6, 3 and 9 o’clock positions, so sorta should be a mini AR-15 look as a final product, with full picatinny rails running the length of the tube extensions so you can save a lot of money by just bolting on all your other accessories that you already bought for your other guns; just buy ARMS type quick mounts (no tools needed, you just flip the lever) and stick ’em on, especially night vision equipment. That kinda gear is too expensive to dedicate to one gun, so I prefer the ARMS mounts and just move the gear to whatever gun I’m taking out into the field. I think I remember seeing really cheap knockoffs of the ARMS mounts being marketed on ebay or elsewhere; anyone see these?
aloha,
walt
Shuweeeeet !! 😯 😎 😎 😎
Man Walt that looks awesome dude!!!
That is some sweet work Walt! 😯 beautifully designed and beautifully implemented. 😀 😀
It’s very beautiful craftsmanship. Looking forward to see the final finish.
extremely nice work Walt!
I have considered cutting the frame shorter, back behind the power wheel window then threading whats left externally or threading in an internal bushing with threads cut for the M16 barrel nut and building a single barrel bushing similar in external profile to that on a M16 barrel extension.
one could then use either a Troy free floating rail on the barrel nut OR a Hogue overmolded free float forend tube
Barrel would be rapidly dismountable by merely spinning off the forend assm.
this would be done in conjunction with a 1913 rail install in place of the existing “carry handle”
This is a pic of the frame threading and a very short, 3″ extension tube. The project is for a very short (17″) .258 firing 85g and 100g solids that is short enough to pack into the woods and very, very quiet. There is a second ldc over the short, first ldc. Someone else here had pics of a similar setup without the short internal ldc, I think his was just the fat ldc over the condor.
aloha,
walt
Sam 😕
Sam a close slip fit and a proper set screw will hold it straight and sturdy with not problems. I have a Talon Tunes shroud and it is only held by a set screw and has never given me a minute of problem.
What I do recommend is if the slip fit of the shroud and frame is a bit loose is to build up a layer of finger nail polish on the male end of the shroud and when dry hand fit the shroud to the frame for a very tight fit. Of course the shroud should always be rotated while looking down the barrel to make sure it lines up with not obstruction. Then the set screw should be tightened a bit to mark the shroud and then drill a depression for the set screw to sit it. With this set up the shroud will never shoot off the gun and will always line up even after taking off the shroud.
What I would like to see on the slip on kind of shroud is Orings installed on the male end to give a good concentric alignment tight hold to the frame as well as the set screw.
Walts idea is great. But it is not an option for everybody to send their gun to Hawaii to have it done.
I don’t use a moderator, no need for one here out in the county. Just trying to help those that do.
Sam 😎
Thanks guys. Bennee, turnaround right now is short, should be within 3 days or so, a week at most. I only have 1 other project on the burner right now, which I will also post pics of tonight since it is related to this same post… wait till you see it, it’s a real hoot!
Sam, I’m sorry to hear that about your mod. Unfortunately, as you can probably guess, your situation is more likely to be the rule and not the exception. While I can see a few ways to possibly fix that, to make it not affect your point of impact so much, it will never completely eliminate shift in POI because the barrel is no longer free floating. For some, it’s not a big deal because they don’t use the gun for precision shooting… for others, the loss in accuracy isn’t that important. But, hey, I’m always game for something a little bit better. What struck me the most was that people were willing to put up with this limitation for so long. As powder gun shooters have known for a long time, barrels that are not free floated, while capable of good accuracy in any given session, are prone to movements of point of impact when the weather changes (swelling of the wood due to moisture change) or when the ambient temperature changes. Something expands and pushes the barrel a bit and that changes where its pointed. That’s why free floating was invented; just remove anything that’s touching the barrel and you eliminate the problem in shifting point of impact. Simple. Tidy.
aloha,
walt
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😯 That’s the shit I’m talkin bout bro,I like that! 😀