Top Hat Shim Secret?
Where do top hat shims when a quick change top hat is present?
Are rubber o rings also relevant? Or duplicative of the quick change top hat?
Neither were visibly present with the factory top hat, and absent any instructions being located I’m grateful for any help.
Thanks,
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Viewing 13 replies - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
Thanks GKU
It sounds like you have skills way past my experience.
I’d have no idea how to shim a top hat to 0.088. With the TT quick change the head of the top hat is a short gap away from the brass cylinder in the tank end. The bolt is loose enough that when I fire it moves off the “lock” position and centers.
I also note you do better with the stock top hat, making me wish I had not paid so much for mine.
A new friend here has PM’d me suggesting I skip the hard plastic top hat shim and get a bag of o-rings from an auto parts store, and the rubber. I already have a bag of rings from Tony, perhaps one of those would work.
I am not encouraged by talk of fine top hat tolerances making such a big difference in this gun. Tony’s site even mentions sanding the shims to get them just right. Good lord.
Last night I got the drop down adapter installed. The gun is ready to shoot.
So far I started out excited about this gun. After spending over $1,000 including the scope, stock, silencer, tank adapter and too had, and trigger shoe, I almost wish I would have stayed with my Maurader, my springers and my beloved DAQ .458.
I just want a gun I can go out and shoot a long way and hit stuff. Hopefully I can get the Condor up and running. Maybe I should not get so caught up in the details.
🙂
I have not yet installed the shims.
Any idea why the top hat got tight by itself?
Airforce said it should be tight.
Seeing all the shots in the 800 -700 FPS range makes me feel confused. Airforce advertises velocity well over 1,000 fps and also a certain max FPE. I understand the part about high FPS claims bing with featherlight pellets.
What pellet and tank fill gives the highest FPE and accuracy at 75 yards?? I’m asking because I have an 8-shot .25 maurader with satisfactory “lower velocity” accuracy. I bought the Condor solely on the claim of power,accuracy and range.
All guns will vary in max FPE and accuracy, it depends.
This is what I did to my Condor SS 25 cal.
I’m not saying you should do what I did, just for your info and reference to help.
http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27882#p274167
~ GKU
You can certainly get those extreme velocities (particularly with ‘standard’ weight pellets). My numbers are lower because I’ve tuned for accuracy and noise. Note that those first two sets are with 43 gr. EJ’s – heavy by any standard in .25. I’m also running with the TT large constrictor – I have numbers for running without it, but not for running without it AND an o-ring – that’s why I didn’t post them.
GsT
Thanks everybody.
I have not yet installed the shims.
Any idea why the top hat got tight by itself?
Airforce said it should be tight.
Seeing all the shots in the 800 -700 FPS range makes me feel confused. Airforce advertises velocity well over 1,000 fps and also a certain max FPE. I understand the part about high FPS claims bing with featherlight pellets.
What pellet and tank fill gives the highest FPE and accuracy at 75 yards?? I’m asking because I have an 8-shot .25 maurader with satisfactory “lower velocity” accuracy. I bought the Condor solely on the claim of power,accuracy and range.
Let’s see if this works:
43 gr. EJ’s w/o o-ring:
727.3
726.8
730.6
730.3
733.3
736.5
735.4
731.6
736
735.3
733
734.5
735.6
738.2
734.4
736.1
731.3
736.1
732.5
729.2
727.5
727.8
723.6
725.5
724.5
723
723.1
721
717.8
713.4
709.9
712.3
706.4
707.5
703.6
701.2
700.2
697.6
698.1
693.6
690.6
686.8
686
684.2
679.6
679
680.7
675.5
671.5
670.9
667.8
667.8
660.9
662.8
658.5
655.2
657.9
656.2
650.1
648.8
646.2
644.5
642.6
640.9
638.8
636.7
636.4
631.1
630.9
627.5
628.8
622.4
623
619.6
617.5
612.9
615.1
610.9
608.2
603.8
605.2
603.1
and with o-ring:
733.4
734.6
730.7
732.9
727.5
732
731.8
728
728.2
724.3
724.4
726.6
725.6
722.6
723.3
722.2
724
720
717.6
716.4
718.5
719.7
714.3
716.3
714.2
711.8
708.4
711.7
705.7
708.9
706
704.9
703.9
702.6
700.9
698.5
696.3
694.6
694.5
692.5
692.4
693
688.1
687.8
689.1
683.4
680.5
681.9
679.8
679.5
678.5
674.1
672.6
670.8
668
666.6
667.2
662.6
665
660.2
661.2
659.8
658.8
654.1
653
651.4
648.9
651.6
648.6
644.8
642.2
641.6
637.6
641
637.6
635.5
633.1
632.3
629.2
628.3
626.3
626.2
JSB’s w/o:
852.8
855.8
855.6
855.2
853.2
857.1
854.6
851.9
853.4
853.8
851.5
850.8
847.8
849.9
849.4
848.5
847.5
846.3
847
847.7
840.1
839.8
838.4
838.8
839.4
832.9
831.4
832.2
827.8
827.4
823.9
822.6
819
819.5
815.4
814.4
814.8
810.7
805.4
806.1
801.6
798.8
796.4
797.6
789.9
787.6
787.7
782.6
782.5
780.1
778.2
778.8
773.3
771
769.3
766.5
766.4
766.4
761.4
758.1
757.8
754.8
754.1
751.1
750.8
744.6
741.1
739
736.7
736.1
and with:
841.8
842.6
840.6
843.7
841.1
839.5
841.3
842.5
837.1
836.9
841.8
838.8
839.6
842.6
840.6
838.1
836.5
836.3
832.9
836.2
838.4
833.2
831.4
833.5
831.6
831.1
825.6
831.6
830.8
828.3
824.7
826.4
827.6
825.2
822.7
821.2
818.5
818.3
820.3
818.7
818.4
814.8
812.3
813.9
813.7
812.9
810.3
810
805.5
804.6
803.1
800.9
802.1
800.8
799.1
796.3
796.4
794.2
794.8
794.1
791.5
788.1
786.9
784
786
781.2
781.5
781.4
780.5
779.1
777.5
778.7
772.8
775.7
769.9
770.3
767.7
766.8
764.2
762.1
761.3
761.8
758.8
757.3
753.2
754.2
750.9
750
748.8
748.6
746.8
746.7
748
740.3
741.7
739.7
737.6
735.6
GsT
On the gap between the bolt face and the top hat has had some talk here on TAG.
IIRC, some say it not good to have and some say otherwise ?
Both of my AF guns don’t have a gap and I’m using the factory top hat on both.
On one I shimmed the factory top hat and the other didn’t need it.
If not the gap will create a double slap, one hammer hitting the breech and the second the breech hitting the top hat.
Unless you close the breech back against the top hat so that it sits against it all the time, then it maybe okay ?
On both I adjusted the top hat out until the breech when in the lock position made good contact with the top hat with no back and forth play.
Added an O-ring behind it and crony to check the speed.
To adjust the speed I altered what was behind it and didn’t change the top hat position once it was already set.
If it was to high I added a nylon washer shim and sanded the thickness down to increase the speed if needed.
If it was to low I added a thinner O-ring.
Fine tuned with the power wheel.
~ GKU
Does anyone know the wall thickness/range of thicknesses picked up an 1/8 and an 1/16
The 1/16 o ring seems too small to fill space between collar and top hat, shots sounded like no change so i tried the 1/8, which fits very snug but has drastically decreased the sound/airflow.
As a side note both diameters fit excellent on the stem. Only difference is the space between TH and frame/spin loc collar.
Thanks. I have a feeling a pic or 2 of your mod will answer my question.
Cally
All you need is one rubber Oring under the top hat. Probably best if it fits quite tightly on, for less free play, but it can be lose. Obviously when the hammer strikes the tophat it ends up in the same place whether tight or not. With one rubber Oring you will get more consistency, greater shot count, a quieter gun and no loss of power. Or virtually none. I’ve played around with all sorts of variations with nylon washers, Orings, and had all these on the chrony. But you cant go wrong with one rubber Oring.
I bought the shims because after installing the quick change top hat the bolt was slightly loose.
It seems to have somehow gotten tighter.
That is puzzling.
Did you buy TT shims? what thickness did you use? have you noticed anymore consistancies in FPS, or did it just snug up the bolt slop?
Thanks
I bought the shims because after installing the quick change top hat the bolt was slightly loose.
It seems to have somehow gotten tighter.
That is puzzling.
Does a plastic shim or “o” ring work better than the other? Has anyone seen/made a chart showing the difference in FPS compared to tank pressure and TH depth? I know that FPS is also dependent on projectile weight, but perhaps a general idea would help people without a crony. (like myself)
Cally
REmove the top hat, place the shim or oring on the stem of the top hat and reinsert. The thicker the washer or oring the lower the velocity.
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Don’t get discouraged! Once you get it up and running you will laugh every time you pull the trigger. These guns can be tailored to shot how ever you want it too. Lots of shot or lots of power and just as accurate either way. They are actually very simple to work on and if you keep good notes you can actually do all the math and figure out what you need to change to get what you want and be very close once you actually do the work. I use nylon washer I had and sand them to the thickness I want to slow the shots down and increase shot count or get all the air and power out fast with no shot count. lol It takes about 5 minutes to sand one. Search my screen name from here on your tube and I show you how to make the shims in one of the videos with a piece of sand paper and no time at all. Stick with it and like I said once your done you will love it then start changing things again to see what else you can do. I am about to order a 2nd tank to make life easier. One regulated for shot count the other wide open for coyote smoking power.
Good luck dude and hang in there!
Dj