How do I increase Power??
Hi guys, I’ve recently received my .22 barrel for my Condor-currently .177.
After fitting the new barrel and testing over the chrony, I was getting 680fps with JSB 25gr pellets. It shoots .177 JSB Monsters (13,4gr) at around 1200fps but lacks power with the .22 barrel. When I bought the rifle, I got a new valve kit with new hi flo valve stem and top and .22 valve spring which was fitted including some seals.
My question is, can I set or decrease the tension on the valve spring in order to let more air through or do I work on a lower fill pressure to up the velocity with the .22 barrel. I fill up to 2900psi. I’m trying to achieve around 1000-1050fps with the JSB 25gr’s. Any help appreciated.
Many thanx, Nick.
Ps: I have set the top hat and adjusted the side wheel but this doesn’t have any effect.
All Replies
Powderburner, many thanks for saving me whoknowshowmany hours messing w/ the pw, trying to flatten the curve. :banghead:
Looks like the spring return is a bit inconsistent in its seating; probably why Tony tells ya not to mess with it after a tune :nono:
you need more air pressure or less hammer to get on the front of the curve. However due to the design of the valve there isn’t much up curve. But there is one.
edit
ya what newbie said lol 😆
LOL, i have chased the fps curve with the PW like you are saying Bogman and it sucks, and is not repeatable for consistency, or at least not efficient for me,
Mr Newbie is right on with the tuning advice , just follow his lead and you will get it.
Hey Nick,
I’m mostly watching the paper vs. chrony, for now. But, with such a long barrel, I’d try a lower TH first (you can always back it out) with a super light load on the pw/preload, like 2/8, since you mention the spring may be weak. It’s easy to back the pw off, too. This might work better w/ a slightly higher fill pressure (though you mentioned desiring a lower fill) if you use a heavier hammer.
One thing I haven’t seen much info on which might be interesting is to start w/ a system requiring a higher preload/pw and then actually figure out how to lower it, back off the spring as the tank bleeds air. For example: every five shots back the wheel off 0/8, or something along those lines. I don’t think we know much about it, but there may be a way to use the preload to even out the tank output and broaden the bell curve. Maybe even start higher(opens valve wider at higher fill), then lower(valve closes slower due to lower backpressure), then higher(valve opens longer and closes slower), based on chrony details? Basically, the search for equalized air output as tank pressure decreases. I’m curious if the spring/pw/ preload settings are consistent within the same gun. If not, this concept won’t work; each session will be different. If the pw settings are reliably reproducible, then I’m screwed; I’ll be playing with the possibilities until I pass out from malnutrition trying to flatten the bell.
Does this idea have any merit? Or should I see my doctor about adjusting my medication? 😛
Nick Wrote
(What does this tell you?)
Your string looks like you are pretty darn close to a 980fps average, if you could just start shooting at 970-go up to 990..then back to 970, you would be there.
A little less hammer slap..lower the PW a setting (I prefer this one)
Or a little more air in tank try 2900psi
and your there…
Am I right in saying that a heavier hammer weight will increase the velocity and push me over to the left of the power curve?
Kind of, A heavier hammer will change everything, it should result in your gun shooting easily over 1000fps, but you will need to find that balance point in the curve all again…Tank psi, pw, all interact..more crony, more air, more fun..
Since you are shooting pretty good right now around 980 fps, I think you should take 20 shots at a target at 50-60 yards, and see how it groups. Some day you may want to shoot at a lower power, might as well do it now for referance.
( Things are looking better but I still need to get better velocities than these at a lower fill pressure. What do you gents suggest I do next?)
I think the heavier hammer will help with the velocities, and on the fill pressure as well.
Whats your Power wheel set at now?
Ok its about an hour after my last post but I couldn’t wait, so I filled up with what I have left in the dive cylinder and topped up the rest with the Hill pump.
I could only manage 15 shots over the chrony but there’s a huge improvement in consistency and air usage seems better as well.
1. 985,8fps -2800psi fill
2. 991,0
3. 988,8
4. 988,5
5. 985,1
6. 988,2
7. 983,0
8. 983,5
9. 983,1
10. 977,9
11. 975,8
12. 978,0
13. 974,6
14. 973,2
15. 970,4 -2400psi
What does this tell you? Am I right in saying that a heavier hammer weight will increase the velocity and push me over to the left of the power curve. Things are looking better but I still need to get better velocities than these at a lower fill pressure. What do you gents suggest I do next?
Thanx Nick.
1) Put the valve back the way it was
2) Move tophat out to .090-.100 , .67 seems a bit low to get more power
3) put a oring behind top hat
Done. Hammer set to .010 with an o-ring behind it. Tomorrow I’ll refill the dive cylinder and put some lead over the chrony.
Guys I’m not sure if I’ve mentioned this but the rifle was going over 1000fps. I tried to drop the velocity in order to use less air-but the valve spring has been retentioned to max so the ‘too much air’ may be sorted. I’ll fit the heavy hammer weight, I’m busy having a heavier one made so I’ll see which works best. As soon as I can, I’ll post the new chrony strings.
Thanx a ton, will keep you updated.
Nick wrote
( I must add that my valve spring has the tension slightly decreased from previous work done. I’m assuming that I need to re-tension it.)
My gun uses about 20psi per shot, and thats not considered great
Well you asked how to do it, and Pabs told you. I saw that post and was thinking, with that 26″ barrel and valve he should have no problems going over 1000fps.
I would start over.
1) Put the valve back the way it was
2) Move tophat out to .090-.100 , .67 seems a bit low to get more power
3) put a oring behind top hat
4) Decide what hammer to use
lighter hammer=less power in fps
Heavy hammer = more power in fps and at lower tank fill psi
Read RC thread, he is a master of more power and valve mods.
His mods are not for you, you should not have to do anything fancy
to shoot at 1000-1050fps with your 26″ barrel and hf valve.
$ get more air, more pellets and start shooting over the crony
Nick, what are you trying to do?
Have your goals changed, are you still trying to shoot at over 1000fps?
I was under the impression you were at your target fps 1000+, while filling your tank to only 2400psi-2500psi. Damn near perfect!
Why did you change things up and pull the hammer weight if you were at your target fps? Especially if you could do it at 2400psi.
Ok enough….
To smooth out your shot string above..less hammer try pw=4..or 100psi more air in tank.
For the above string that looks like an average of around 950 or so, but its starting off too high and workin its way low.
Less hammer or more air, moves you to the left
it should be more like this example.
940,945,942,950,956,955,960,960,962,965,969,970,967,962,955,961,958,954,960,952,958, 950,949,945,940,938,941…bl,bla,bla
Did you really fill to 2900psi and drop all the way to 1800psi in 30shots? If so something is wrong, you ate way to much air. I do a 30 shot string from 2300psi to 1800psi.. 500psi used.
.
Mr Newb, the rifle is using too much air, that’s why I put a smaller hammer weight in and also to see if I could get to the left side of the bell curve. The piledrivers seem to do better at higher speeds. I got 4 shots in 3″ circle at 180yrds yesterday-custom barrel, not LW. Yes the fill preasure was 2900psi down to 1800psi.
How do I increase velocity but use a lower fill preasure? That is my biggest aim at the moment. I’ve gone wrong somewhere. I must add that my valve spring has the tension slightly decreased from previous work done. I’m assuming that I need to re-tension it.
@RC, Roach I’ll have a look at your post. I enjoying ironing out these problems but I can’t do it without your help.
Thanx, Nick.
I’ll take a stab at it!
Nick, what are you trying to do?
Have your goals changed, are you still trying to shoot at over 1000fps?
I was under the impression you were at your target fps 1000+, while filling your tank to only 2400psi-2500psi. Damn near perfect!
Why did you change things up and pull the hammer weight if you were at your target fps? Especially if you could do it at 2400psi.
Ok enough….
To smooth out your shot string above..less hammer try pw=4..or 100psi more air in tank.
For the above string that looks like an average of around 950 or so, but its starting off too high and workin its way low.
Less hammer or more air, moves you to the left
it should be more like this example.
940,945,942,950,956,955,960,960,962,965,969,970,967,962,955,961,958,954,960,952,958, 950,949,945,940,938,941…bl,bla,bla
Did you really fill to 2900psi and drop all the way to 1800psi in 30shots? If so something is wrong, you ate way to much air. I do a 30 shot string from 2300psi to 1800psi.. 500psi used.
Nick,
Read my post about cast bullets in the Condor using AirArcher fire control components.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Guys, another update. I’ve taken everything into account that you guys have mentioned and I’m very happy with the results. This afternoon I removed the large hammer weight and replaced it with a slightly smaller one-im trying to get better consistency and shot count. Below is a chrony string done with Jsb 25,4gr (.22) pellets.
Consistency isn’t fantastic but that’s the next problem I’ll sort out.
I filled the cylinder upto 2900psi, tophat is set at .067. PW 4-13.
1. Error
2. Err
3. Err
4. 988,1 fps
5. Err
6. 982,7
7. Err
8. 986,0
9. 993,2
10. Err
11. Err
12. 994,2
13. 997,4
14. Err
15. 989,8
16. 978,3
17. 978,3
18. 978,6
19. 969,5
20. 969,5
21. 960,0
22. 969,1
23. 956,4
24. 956,5
25. 968,6
26. 962,5
27. 956,3
28. 953,8
29. 944,3
30. 941,1. Finishing preasure-1800psi
The error readings were due to poor light and limited space but I eventually got that sorted.
Can anyone tell me how and where I can improve? I’m looking at 25-30 usable shots.
Thanx in advance, your help thus far has been fantastic.
Regards Nick.
The whole time I am reading this thread, I am thinking why is Nick shooting with a .177cal barrel, when he replaced all the valve parts he needed to shoot with a .22 barrel? 😆
i just suggested this in another thread: pry the stem out(if you can. if not, just squeeze under the tophat) and put a thin coat of silicone or fluorocarbon grease around the stem, put it back in, and take some shots. if the line that forms is close to the tophat, you may want to do the o ring thing as opposed to lowering. if you got room, no worries. this gives a good reference point to see how far the valve is travelling as pressure decreases.
opening up the th gap, depending on other variables, allows the valve to open wider(hence longer) as tank pressure decreases. if it is set too close, besides accuracy ramifications and roughing up the valve, can potentially shorten the string by not allowing the dwell time to compensate for the drop in pressure, and at that point you should see a linear drop in velocity. remember that a longer blast of lower pressure air can do the same thing as a quick burst of higher pressure.
just some things to think about… 🙂
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well i didnt say you couldnt do it, 😆
It will work, BUT :banghead:
Leeds to alot of , :18: