The 257 Haley, getting it to shoot
This is the first day I have had to really concentrate on alloys, fill pressures, shooting technique and bullets with the .257 Haley.
It has rained and blown all day, as a result my shooting was confined to shooting off the Mercedes, casting bullets from 4 different alloys, shooting those bullets sized to .258 and shooting them as cast.
I shot off the Mercedes just holding the rifle in my hands without bags to start with until I saw a vast improvement that needed bags to wring out the full potential.
I also switched to a different pair of scope rings, the clamping design of cheapie chinese ones would not allow the mounting of my Dyotat side focus parallax wheel, so I had ordered some Leupold split rings from Midway and they came in today so I installed them.
I have two differnet molds I am using, the Lyman 257420 and the RCBS Cowboy mold.
Before I sent the rifle off to Jack Haley to try different springs, the RCBS bullet was the best, but today and yesterday I had trouble with the RCBS bullets. In retrospect I think it is having issues with my muzzle break before I sent it to Jack I did not shoot it with the Muzzle brake because it was clipping, maybe because it is longer.
I started off using 4400 PSI for all fills, with pure lead and both bullets. The Lyman bullets shot inch 3 shot groups at the 40 yard or so range I have and the RCBS bullet shot all over and demonstrated tipping with oblong holes.
I also found with pure lead I was only getting around 20 shots before needing a scrubbing with a bronze brush and bronze wool.
I then tried 40-1, both sized and unsized and nothing really changed,groups were the same and velocity was the same with the Lyman going 1135 and the RCBS moving at 1060.
That load also leaded badly, so after cleaning I started lubing with ATF.
Then I exchanged a few pmg’s with Cedric over some HPed 257420 Lyman bullets he had sent me that seem to be lost in the mail. Cedric brought up the subject of leading and he had also posted about it on one of my threads, so I decided to take Cedric’s advice and go for a harder alloy. Pure lead had worked fine in my TSSS at up to 900 FPS, but pushing along at 1135 FPS, the Haley .257 definately does lead.
Next I tried Lyman #2 alloy. That is regarded as being a little hard for airgun use. The Lyman bullets dropped out at .260-261 and weighed 4 grains less at 70.5, I only cast a few of the tipping RCBS bullets and did not weigh them.
The harder bullets shot the same velocity as the softer ones despite being lighter, I think because it is harder to push them down the bore, but the 257420 went into .80 of an inch, the RCBS bullets still tipped.
After that I decided to try a custom blend of alloy. I came up with 97.5% lead, 1.25% tin and 1.25 % Antimony. Cast of this alloy the 257420 weighs 72.3 average and is .259 when it drops from the mold. I sized them to .258 and shot them with a 4400 PSI fill, and but this time I tried 5 shot groups just to see how they grouped.
I got a .90 inch 5 shot groups with this alloy wuthout bags, I then set up the bags and got serious.
Problem was I was running out of air, so I only filled to 4000 PSI for my next group. Instantly my group went to .53 for 5 shots. The next 5 shot group I topped off at 4400 PSI with a fresh tank, that group was .75 inches for 5 shots. The last group of the day I tried 4000 PSI again and that group was a nice .47 inches for 5 shots. One of those .50 groups started with 3 shots in one small hole, if I had elected to stop at three shots, they would have been in the teens, the other group had the first threee shots going into 1/4 inch.
It was getting dark so I did not chrony this alloy and I was tired tired, but I also feel damn good about what I learned today about my rifle and that was:
It needs bags of course to get the best accuracy,
It likes a harder alloy, harder alloy and ATF has given me close to 75 shots without cleaning so far,
It likes a 4000 PSI fill,
The last thing is I am really liking this Haley.
Even with a 4000 PSI fill you have to consider that over 1000 FPE combined went thru these 5, 25 caliber holes.
Regards,
Roachcreek
All Replies
Butcher,
I see Mr HP offering some 119 grain 308 spitzers on the Yellow that he is calling target bullets.
It seems we are educating these people slowly, before he and others touted them for game animals, I vigrously objected and my heritage was called into question, but it seems I got my point acrossed.
I hate it when my heritage is questioned, my parents were in fact married, perhaps not to each other, but they were in fact married.. 😉
RC
This pissing match started when i commented in jest on the Adventures site that RCBS had cut their cavities backwards.
This was to rib Marvvin who often seats his bullets backwards in his chamber when he can’t get them to shoot nose first, and it often works well for him..
I have had dismal accuracy with the 85 grain Cowboy mold, it often tips as you can see in the photo, and when I loaded it backwards, it shot fine.
What this proved to me, was that the speed I shoot them at and the 1-14 inch twist, the Haley stablizes the bullet.
The responce I got from one of the on board bullet peddlers, was I really was wasting my time trying to cast my own and did not really know what I was doing and should buy his bullets instead, and I at the time had honestly heard that his bullets shot well, since then I have heard that is not always the case, which is to be expected, not all rifles are the same.
I tried to explain this was not my first cast bullet rodeo and that I had fed my family with game killed by my cast bullets for years and won a couple of state championships in one venue or another with bullets I had cast including a 1000 yard Sass title, but it was pointed out to me being as I don’t own a bullet factory, I really did not know shit and should listen to the on board “experts”.
But we got in a Talon forum type pissing match, drawing circles with our dick in the sands of pride, marking our territory, with the fans of his wares telling me I should listen to their 50 years of bullet casting experience.
Now I am 63, started casting when I was 22 as a OSP trooper who liked to shoot his revolver and needed funds for primers and powder. I soon found I could trade bullets for such items and the die was cast, no pun intended, but I have never sold any, as many of you have found out.
So I have 41 years in doing this stuff, and he or they combined have 50. 😯
Butcher had posted here about his frustration with these experts and I have to say, I don’t have a lot of patience with people talking condencending to me, and I don’t put up with it. I did not go there seeking advice, just to poke fun at Marvin and tell him his trick worked for a mold that just was not cutting the mustard.
The Haley shoots the only other bullet I have cast in it pretty well, so I must be stumbling ignorantly down the right path with the 257420, but no matter what I try, other loading them backwards, that damn RCBS bullet does not shoot well.
This morning I cast yet another 75 of them, sorted them, sized them, inspected them, sprayed them with moly , seated them right at the riflings in a just cleaned bore and this is what I got at 40 yards with 3 shot fills.
RC
To all the Adventures forum crowd who have read Butchers and my post or rant if that is a better description.
It was on this forum, so I would think that this forum would be the propper venue to discuss it.
Advenutres has some fine posters, and some fine people, it also has some people selling their wares, that are very protective of your little close net guild or for lack of a better word clique and I suspect that it was formed for the very reason to protect your interests.
But your not alone in your expertise, I suspect I have killed more elk, deer, antelope, bear and coyotes than most of you guys combined or damn close, not to mention sent down range, as many cast bullets. The difference between you and I is that I prefer to do it all myself, I don’t need a guide or a stocked high fence property or someone to cast my projectiles.
But at one time I did particpate in high fence hunts myself.
It started when I was a child of 12. At that time ranchers could cut and wrap their own beef for beef customers. My father who had worked partime in a slaughter house, instructed me on how to do the killing, so by the time I was 15, I had killed around 40 head of cattle inside our 8 fooot high bull corrrel.
If that counts. 😛
So if you have a gripe about my comments, come here and post them.
This is a free society and for the most part we do have freedom of speech, again within reason and within the rules of each particular forum, and we should be free to express opinons that are propper for the forum we are posting in.
So come on over, lets discuss it.
Looks like you struck a nerve with that one! coughLIBOBcough 😆
Butcher,
You are so correct. Especially in regards to the bullets peddlers on the Adventurers forum.
The only thing worse is the ones who go on a half dozen high fence hunts and become the be all know all wizards of hunting.
What is it about some of these bullet peddlers that once they post an add, they suddenly know more about bullet casting than anyone else in the world, and then have to talk condecendly to everyone in such a arrogant manner.
The answer is they want to sell their one size fits all bullets, and try to convince us that their one size fits all approach will be better than what we can cast for our individual rifles.
I learn something new everyday it seems about bullet casting, when I talk to John Bowman, I really learn something, but when these guys tell me that their one size fits all will work better than what I can make or their new high speed nose design cancels out the efforts and history of those like Elmer Keith and act like I know nothing about the science of bullet casting it reallly gets my blood pressure up.
With the exception of buying 357 bullets for my kid and 45 LC bullets for myself, back in the days when I was shooting thousands monthly practicing for SASS and could not keep up with the volume, I have almost always found I can can cast better bullets for my rifles than commercial casters can provide.
I once bought some much touted BPCR bullets from Midway or Cabelas and they were of such poor quality, I sent them back.
The Mr Hollow point bullets I bought had cracks inside the HP void, and I never see groups from his bullets that he shoots, just video after video of him blowing up things. Then there are the guys who shoot a deer with his bullet and spout about how good it shoots, well what kind of a group did thoe bullets shoot on the side of that deer with a target area of 12×12 at 40 yards?.
Recently someone told me what a good caster and vendor one of those guys was because he carefully trimmed the skirts off the bases of the bullets he sold, sorry but they should not have been there in the first place.
And this is a proffesional caster?
Not to be picking on Mr HP, he is a nice guy and he is not arrogant like others, but sorry I can make those bullets myself for my rifle better, it is why I cast bullets, that and I like to do things myself.
If I had to pay those prices to shoot these big bores, I would not shoot them, for non casters I guess they are good, but don’t talk condescendingly to me as if after 40 years of casting I know nothing about making bullets.
The other thing that bothers me, while I am on a rant, is people posting three and four shot groups and trying to convince others that this is the accuracy potential of their rifles, saying my rifle will shoot 1/2 inch groups or 1 inch groups at 100 yards. Will they do that each time? The reply is usually ” if I do my part”.
Bullshit, why would you not do your part?
I have started shooting ten shot groups, because that shows the true accuracy potential of my rifle. Those groups will be a lot bigger than someones best ever group that is passed as what their rifle will do, but a 10 shot group truely shows the potential of a rifle and bullet combination.
And I am not talking about hunting potentional of a big bore rifles two or three shot fill, that is completly different, it shows what your going to get in the field with that rifles fill, but really shows nothing about what to expect day in and day out.
Wind effects the groups at 285 and 300 yards, but the ability of the shooter and the bullets wind bucking ability also shows what the true potentail of a rifle is.
Not that we should not post our smallest groups and brag about them, just don’t pass that lucky group off as the everyday potential of the rifle.
When the NRA tests a rifle, they take 5 consecutive 5 shot groups and average them, now why do you suppose they do that, rather than shooting for a few weeks and taking their best group and exclaiming to the world, this is what my rifle will do?
Even the Pyramyds blog written by Gaylord shows ten shot groups.
A very good example of this is when I fired 4 shots with the RCBS bullet out of my Haley at 40 yards and luckily or actually unluckily, they did not tip and As a result of those few shots I believed that was the bullet to use. If I had shot a 10 shot group, I would have known betterr.
I once shot the first 3 shots of what was going to be a 5 shot group at 285 yards, those first three landed dead centeer on the gong at 1.5 inches, I posted the group and said that I quit shooting because the next two would have ruined a perfect group. Was that group a true repesentation of what the rifle will do at 285 yards, hell no it is not, but it was unique and I prefaced it by saying that.
The fact is, even a blind squirrel gets anut every once in awhile, but that squirrel does not prade it around like gospel.
So basically what I am saying, is if your bullets for our long range rifles are so good, show me several 10 shot 250 yards and beyond groups. If your peddling them as 100 yard bullets, at least do the NRA test, show me 5 consecutive 5 shot groups.
Put your money where your mouth is.
Anyway your right as rain Butcher and you did mention the alloy thing even two yers ago when I was playing with the Ranger, either in a phone call or in print, and pardon my rant.
Excuse the typo’s and spelling. Poor spellers of the world UNTIE. 😆
RC
It dawned on me why I have to load it in backwards Mike, It is a homosexual mold. 💡
RC
Strange. May-be the rifle likes nose heavy bullets in that weight. Kinda like pellets. Perhaps the center of gravity, or balance is just Too rear biased in the RCBS bullet for this twist and velocity.
I’v seen this oddity in some cast hand gun bullets over the years. Especially in .38 and .357.
Mike
Yes Butcher you may of in fact also recomended changing alloys.
Now that RCBS mold of mine and the muzzle break..
Turns out the drill bit I used was too short to go thru from end to end, so I did the first two chambers from the muzzle end and then the last chamber from the reciever end.
After close inspection I saw that the chamber end hole was off center, so I drilled it out, put it on and tried the RCBS bullet, it tipped and scattered like before.
Then Cedric and I were PMGing and we started discussing the holes in sprue plates and how they are too big for these small caliber molds, then a light came on and I remembered I had been off setting the sprue plate to try and keep the bases from deforming when I struck the sprue.
So out to the bench again and I cast yet some more of the keyholing RCBS bullets, this time getting the mold hot so that the lead was soft twhen I struck the sprue.
I then shot them and of curse the buggers still did not fly straight.
Then I remembered Marvin saying load them in backwards, and I did just that, the first three I shot backwards cut a single lanted hole at 40 yards, the next two on a depleting air supply took the group to a little over an inch.
Still have not figured out the problem, but they fly backwards straight. I think I said that right. 😆
Just don’t know what to do with backwards bullets in a long range rifle.
Three shots lower left were nose first, centered 5 were base first.
RC
Nice to see you testing different alloys (I thought that was my suggestion? lol).
In the past, some folks (especially two buddy-buddy commercial airgun casters in cahoots with eachother to control the market) that don’t want to complicate their process with different alloys/testing liked to make fun of me for suggesting that airgunners with high velocity airguns experiment with harder alloy to see their affect. Now folks like Jack Haley recommend harder alloy stuff for many of their rifles.
Eat crow assholes (you know who you are).
Do a dated search on Adventures for “BHN”, “meplat”, etc. Hardly anyone on there knew what that stuff meant a few years ago…..but that didn’t stop the nut riding dipshits from making fun of those things.
I think the way to do this is to buy a 4500 PSI paint ball bottle as mall in diamerter as you can find, if there are any, put a regulator on it, attach it to the bottom rail, which could easily be done with scope rings altered to attach to both the bottle and the rail.
Then you take your etac or angled adapter that most of us have and instead of haveing a gauge, just screw the line into the etac or attach it with a femal Foster fitting and a checked valve male fitting.
If you can’t find a 4500 PSI bottle that small in diameter, just use a 3000 PSI bottle and make a cap with a 1/4 inch threaded port to screw the line into.
R.C., try mike kobel. i talked to him a while back and he was having some 4500psi. tanks manufactured exclusively for him. they are 465cc. and the same dimensions as the
Replace the forearm with this assembly as it is no more unergnomic than the forearm that is on there now.
It alo makes a fine start as a Bullpup. Then if you put a Timney trigger right where the sear is now, put a Wok guard on it and you have most of the bullpup.
When you get that Guppy bottle just fill it to 3000 PSI attach it to your etac and see how many shots you get. I have done it with mine when it was a conventional Condor, but I forget what the count was.
RC
RC, try mike kobel. i talked to him a while back. he was having some 4500psi. tanks made specifically for him. they are 465cc., and the same dimensions as the AF tanks. been a while since i talked to him, so, they should be ready by now.
RC,
A question for you. Which bullet did Jack cut the lead in for? My barrel was actually made for the 257420 bullet as done by Doug. It doesn’t like the RCBS or the Hunters Supply, but it does shoot the HS bullets better than the RCBS.
Joe it is a Stoner muzzle break.
RC
I cast more of the RCBS bullets up.
I inspected them, weighed and took bullets for 88.2 to 88.7 grains, inspected the bases, sized them to .258 which is what the barrel slugs to.
I carefully cleaned the barrel and shot them at 40 yards.
They still key holed and scattered, I kept shooting them to make sure it was not the barrel needing to get broken in after cleaning, but they still keyholed.
If I shoot a group with the Lyman 257420 the accuracy returns.
Now I realize the muzzle brake does change impact, but it is heavy and the barrel is thin. The weight of the muzzle break is causing droop, not clipping. I have drilled it out to .2855 and it shoots well with the 257420 but not with the RCBS mold.
The barrel concentric at the end, I measured it all around it is as close to perfect in measurement and mathamatically, meaning doubling the measurement and adding it to the bore diameter, it equals the threaded outside diametert. Looks and measures the same on all sides.
The RCBS mold just does not shoot well, it gives obvious signs of keyholing with and without the muzzle brake.
When I shot the group earlier with the 7 RCBS bullets I had left over and had some shoot tight and some keyhole, the small tight group was evidently a fluke.
Which goes to prove one group of 3 or 4 proves nothing.
I think this rilfe just does not like that particular design, it may or may not have anything to do with the weight. When I get some heavier bullets I will find out.
In 40 years of casting this is something I have experienced before, asometime buying molds is a crap shoot.
Bottom line, I don’t think it is the muzzle brake, I have just fired too many groups that were stellar with the brake on and shooting the 257420 bullet.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Just curious, since we are talking brake and not LDC..is there a point when drilling the hold too large will yield negligible “air stripping/stabelizing” results??? If not open that sucker wide!
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Oh it never stops lol!
David of Hunters Supply disclosed his specific thoughts on BHN for airgun projectiles on there, and the defensiveness and insinution is swift….now David gets to be painted out as the big bad wolf, too as you can see.
Pot/Kettle comes to mind…….
http://www.network54.com/Forum/414006/message/1357167832/BHN