Need slightly more fps from talon SS
Please can someone help me with a few questions all related to getting slightly more fps from my Talon SS using 21gr pellets?
My current set-up is .22 with 12″ barrel. I would like another 100 fps from it. Please can someone give their opinion on how much each of these would help:
1> Pull the top-hat out and polish it?
2> Adjust the gap?
3> Purchase a 1-piece top-hat
I have purchased a used .22 barrel that is 24″ long and I am getting it cut to 18″. I know it should give me an extra 80 or so fps, but am unsure if I will need to do more to make it as efficient as possible. Please can someone give their opinions on what change (if any) I should make to the valve for efficiency and 900 to 950 fps with the 21gr pellet:
1> Will I need a tank with a high-flow valve?
2> Could I / should I use something like one of the new DAYOTAT .25 valves?
Thanks, Michael.
All Replies
If you are losing power I would first check to make sure you do not have valve lock and fill tank no higher then 2800 psi. Your guage also could be wrong so try filling even down to 2000 psi.
Make sure your hammer is not chattering and remove all wax, lube, graphite etc. It should run smooth and dry.
If you took the gun apart be sure it is back together exactly the way it is suppose to be.
Make sure your top hat stem is not bent.
If your fill is not to high and everything else checks out it should shoot fine. If it does not then you will need to eliminate the changes you made and work back wards to the point it shoots fine.
I did try screwing under pressure once and it didn’t work so well. 🙁 Ah… That could be the answer to that question. 😆 But what about the proper adjustment of the valve spring retainer. How is that achieved?
Where is KNIFEMAKER when we need him?
And so goes the crazy world of tuning… it seems everyone has their own way of “the perfect tune” I will however be waiting to see if any of the experienced air gunners give a response to your questions.
Ever tried to move a screw under pressure? Im wondering if 2000+ psi holds that retainer in place pretty well?
Im not sure but I do know my retainer was not threaded in all the way when I opened my tank for the first time. However I did buy a used gun that was supposedly “tuned” before I got it.
So by tuning or turning BOTH, the top hat AND the valve spring retainer (at the bottom of the valve… inside the tank) a tune for higher power can be achieved. But doing so apparently renders the lower power settings on the PW less reliable for consistency at the those lower levels. If I understand the mechanics of these two parts correctly, tightening the valve spring retainer should put more pressure on the valve spring which in turn requires more energy from the hammer to compress. Lengthening the top hat by screwing it out, puts it in contact with the hammer earlier in the firing cycle, potentially giving a longer contact to release air through the valve. Do I understand this correctly?
From the factory, my Talon shot fine at all power levels; now it shoots fine only at higher power levels. Tuning it to shoot at a higher velocity consistently requires knowing where to set the top hat (.070″-.090″ or .090″ – .120″ depending on which thread I read?) and the valve spring retainer. Is THAT correct? If so, how is proper valve spring retainer adjustment achieved? It seems like AirForce would have designed the retainer to come into battery, that is, be tightened all the way down, taking the guesswork out of the process. With spring tension cycling every time the gun is fired, unless the retainer is locked into place with a grub screw or “Loctite” the valve spring retainer could change positions (unscrew itself). But I don’t think there is any device on the valve to hold the retainer in place. Soooo, how IS that retainer adjusted properly AND what keeps it from backing out during repeated cycling?
I’m not trying to hijack the thread but answers to these questions sure seems to go along with what TARZANBOY is trying to achieve. I know that Tony’s tune involves a lot more than these two adjustments, but I am just one of those curious people. Well, and I do like to fiddle with stuff.
MrNewbie, suggested moving the top hat out (away from the tank) which, as I understand it, will allow an increased amount of air to escape when impacted by the hammer. More air for each shot with a goal of higher FPS (pellet speed). Is this correct?
Two months ago, I received my Talon SS from Tony after he tuned it for me. When it came back it shot great at 8-10 on the PW. But when I turned the PW down to a low setting (3-4) to shoot indoors at 10m, I had irregular failures with pellets dribbling down range or not even exiting the barrel. I could shoot 10-20 rds. OK then a squib. When I called Tony, he indicated that he tuned the gun to be shot at the higher PW settings. At the higher settings, it shoots fine, so now I just leave it there. But I’m wondering if it was the adjustment of the top hat in my Talon that allowed higher FPS but less reliability on the lower PW settings.
I’m all ears! 🙂
Im still new compared to a lot of these guys but have learned a lot about these guns recently. What I have found is that the top hat gap seems to be best around .07-.09 depending on if you are using an o ring beneath the top hat. Any larger gap does release more air but seems to waste a lot more air as well as make things louder. The pw seems to be a better way adjust output after setting the top hat.
As far as the lower pw settings I also had squib issues. When I first got the gun I could shoot anywhere on the pw no problem. However after messing with things I mistakenly tighten the valve spring retainer all the way in. What happend then was that any shot using pw setting lower than 5 would dribble out. I backed out the retainer a turn and the valve worked as it did previously. I havent seen any recommendations where this retainer should be but all the way in is definitely too tight on the valve.
OK, as I sit here with my Corona in hand, let me do a “check for understanding.”
MrNewbie, suggested moving the top hat out (away from the tank) which, as I understand it, will allow an increased amount of air to escape when impacted by the hammer. More air for each shot with a goal of higher FPS (pellet speed). Is this correct?
Two months ago, I received my Talon SS from Tony after he tuned it for me. When it came back it shot great at 8-10 on the PW. But when I turned the PW down to a low setting (3-4) to shoot indoors at 10m, I had irregular failures with pellets dribbling down range or not even exiting the barrel. I could shoot 10-20 rds. OK then a squib. When I called Tony, he indicated that he tuned the gun to be shot at the higher PW settings. At the higher settings, it shoots fine, so now I just leave it there. But I’m wondering if it was the adjustment of the top hat in my Talon that allowed higher FPS but less reliability on the lower PW settings.
I’m all ears! 🙂
Over the next week I’ll try and do everything a little more systematically and see if I can recognize a cause and effect. I will also try what MAW suggested (and the breech seal change).
For now, based on the other feedback, and based on my tendency to make too many changes at one time and then get all confused, I don’t think I want to go down the heavy hammer path.
Hopefully I”ll get it shooting consistantly enough to start working on better groups with this new barrel. So far I made better groups with my old 12″ barrel … but that was before I started having the power issues.
Don’t forget when you cut the 24 inch barrel down to 19 you also removed the choke. Might want to push a pellet or two through it, and see if maybe a specific size would do better in the barrel. Since this is a 22 I do believe thee are some pellets available in slightly larger head sizes if your groups are not up to snuff. However I bet the JSB’s will work out just fine, both of my 22’s, ad the 25 prefer the JSB diet.
Casey
A big “THANKS SO MUCH” to SWIFT518.
I really appreciate the o-rings you sent.
Hopefully I’ll get to return the favor.
I shot more on the weeked, without refilling my tank … and the power gradually picked up to where it used to be, and then levelled off. I ran out of time so I didn’t shoot enough to see a POI drop – but I must have shot at least 60 shots (if not more) without a refill. Baed on that, I agree with the hypothesis that I probably had over-filled the tank.
Over the next week I’ll try and do everything a little more systematically and see if I can recognize a cause and effect. I will also try what MAW suggested (and the breech seal change).
For now, based on the other feedback, and based on my tendency to make too many changes at one time and then get all confused, I don’t think I want to go down the heavy hammer path.
Hopefully I”ll get it shooting consistantly enough to start working on better groups with this new barrel. So far I made better groups with my old 12″ barrel … but that was before I started having the power issues.
maybe use a heavy brass hammer for extra power?
Take a screwdriver, and start the top-hat and stem, sliding out of the bottle, then get some needle nose pliers, to slowly work the stem out of the bottle, by putting pressure under the top-hat. There is a seal, inside the bottle the stem rides on, it must be lubricated with silicone, and polished in this area, the stem that is. You do not have to empty the pressure in the tank to do this. A delrin seal, further down in the tank is holding the pressure in the tank. I had problems like this with my 1st Condor, and finally, I regularly did this when I noticed a slow shot, then later on I chucked up my top-hat in a drill, as Tony suggested, and polished the stem, no further problems after that.
Thanks so much for the 3 replies … I really appreciate it.
Yes, I think I pumped it up too much, not to 3,000 but definitely over 2,600.
Ø I will hook it up to my pump tomorrow … and keep it at < 2,500.
Ø I will leave the hammer & spring stock.
Ø I will replace the breech o-rings.
Ø I’ll measure the tophat gap.
I did actually clean the spring and then put graphite lubricant on it and then rubbed it down … so I am assuming it’s not that.
“One, the power spring could have taken a dump . … Also, the AF factory valve stem is weak. Remove it, and check that it isn’t cracked, or collapsing. “
Uhhh, I think I’ll screw this up. I’m the type that could break an anvil … so I better try this as a last resort.
After the listed actions above I’ll spend more time learning about my shot counts / PSI / accuracy … and go from there.
Thanks!
Sounds like a strange problem…but..
Most of these gun shoot better…at 2000-2600 psi..
At a full 3000 psi..a stock guns hammer CAN NOT open the valve enough. It is best to fill and shoot from 2600 down to 2000 psi.
This is not a BAD thing, you will or have already found out..this is where the best accuracy is anyhow. Its not a curse its a blessing.
A little less air means more accuracy, less air use, more fills off a 3000 psi scube tank, less pumping it you have a hand pump..ect, ect..its a GOOD thing.
It does not matter if its the 12″ old barrel or the new 19″….a stock AF SS does not like 3000psi..period.
I don’t know why you are having problems with the cocking nob, or why it came into play at this time, about all I can suggest give it a good cleaning.
DO NOT get fixated on throwing in a 100gr hammer in so you can fill your gun all the up to 3000psi and open the valve up, so you can shoot a pellet at 900fps.
At least not if you can fill your gun to 2600psi, and still get that 900fps.
If you were to shoot ove a crony and started at 3000psi, you would see 500fps…..after 10-15 shots (2900psi left in tank)..600fps…around 2600/2500psi (in tank) 850-900 fps…this is the goal…
fill to 2600/ maybe 2500..shoot down to 2000 maybe 1900…
give er a try..
Personally I would love to fill to 100 psi and get 40-50 shots in the 850-900fps range..
Well, it could be one or more of several things.
One, the power spring could have taken a dump. Poor heat treatment can cause this.
Spring binding on inside of frame. I polish the outside of my springs just in case.
What did you fill your tank too. It may be too high for your valve/spring combo which can give valve lock. Many find that the SS likes around 2500 psi or very slightly more.
Also, the AF factory valve stem is weak. Remove it, and check that it isn’t cracked, or collapsing.
And check the “0” rings in the breach. If one or both blew, it could cause massive air leakage. With much of the charge escaping out the breach rather than down the barrel.
KnifeMaker
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It has been said many times here n the past. When you get a gun from Tony, it is perfect Treat it likd a spore peter and DON’T TOUCH IT. Shoot it and fondle it. But don’t fuck with it! 😉
Now on the valve retainer, unles you are shooting VERY heavy slugs or bullets, and are in danger of tank dump from these high weight projectiles, Don’t screw in the retainer spring tight. Screw in the retainer until it makes contact with the spring and turn it one half turn futher. If you are the type that just can’t leave well enough alone, give in one full turn, and one full turn only. This is the MAX! Other wise, you are fighting a good tune, and making low velocity shooting when wanted impossible.
KnifeMaker