Talon application for Ratting vs. Mrod
My 1st post on this forum!! Bear with this first paragraph, as I was awaiting getting through the registration process for this forum, and was emailing Anthony Annuuzi. I think he’s deferring this issue to you guys.
I am querying using an Mrod rifle or pistol for ratting. I sent an email to Anthony Annuzzi asking about modding an Mrod with a left-handed bolt, power to 12-15fpe, and accuracy akin to TX200 or S410. Anthony replied: “I would much rather go with the TalonSS. Much lighter and higher shot count than the Marauder. You can go with a factory model or…..”. and then he listed a whole series of mods: “The AAA Condor/Talon has every possible mod for accuracy, power and silence.; Full Tune; Custom Shroud; Custom Hammer; O ring mod; Vented Bushing; Vented Frame; Hammer Slap; ; Options are….: Angled Tank Adapter Installed….$200.00; Trirail…..$35.00; Cocking Knob….$50.00; Fluted Breech …$45.00; Custom tank cover $119.00; Quick Change 3 Speed Tophat Installed….$90.00; Air Force Bipod……$75.00; or Harris Bipod mounted to frame….$185.00.
Me? I didn’t want to create a career for someone doing modding, I just wanted to consider which AG suits my Ratting application the best. (!)
The inherent issue I see limiting the Talon SS for a ratting application is that the scope mounts too high — even with the TTTA device. Some or most anticipated ratting environments are fairly short distances (inside a typical barn). Light is nill and the setup will require night-vision. The short distances, so I have been told, represent a limitation for the Talons due to the height of the scope above the barrel. So, is shooting the Talon SS at short distances (I dunno, maybe 10 to 20 feet) feasible or not?
Also, the second issue with any Talon would be its single shot nature vs. another PCP using magazines. Can any Talon users tell me that practice in cycling/loading the Talon would approach an Mrod in speed for multiple shots? Recall that I am in the dark, literally, here while ratting.
Sorry for the longish post, there has been background leading up to this post. Thanks to all for replies.
Thom
All Replies
I am new to the forum and somewhat new to ratting. Still trying to get the kinks worked out. Right now, my ratting is an infested garage. Extreme close range with very bold rats. Unfortunately they are starting to be leery of traps, and I have too many critters around to safely poison (part of the longer term solution is a truckload of hardiboard that I unloaded yesterday). Anyway, just from last night – trying to shoot a running rat with a pistol – even with a laser is a tough shot. Even with the near rotten siding that is on that garage, that pellet bounced around a bit. Following a running rat with my S200 was much easier – It being barely larger than the stocked crossman pistol used in a previous post.
But more to point. The AF rifle is adaptable, but from what I have read, that adaptability has limits. I am seriously considering starting off with a 2013 Talon SS (in .22). The 2013 has baffles, and the newer trigger (need to research on how much of an improvement that is) – and a “normal” flow tank. But a bit of google shows there are 2 different Condor valves (HiFlo, .177 and .22/.25). For lower power their is the Micro-Meter valve. I if I keep searching I am almost willing to bet there are 2 Talon valves as well. Of course then there is the fun of mis-matching different tanks to barrels to get a more custom shot profile.
Trying to learn all this is almost bad enough to just go grab another air rifle from the safe and just go shooting.
I only shoot rats maybe two three times a week in a good month and I use my TSS .22 sighted in at 20 yards which gives me great head room for those 10 yard – 40 yard shots, all I can say is the TSS is a Tack Driver and I Never Miss. I would highly recommend either the condor or TSS and 20 tins of .22 Preds. To kill all those lil fuckers.
Depends on the distance and lighting.
If it’s almost in complete darkness, a red dot scope would work well, red dot’s also allow for quick acquisition on close distances -such as 10 yards. Main thing is to practice for the distance in which you’ll be shooting most often. Also, a moderator/ shroud of some sort will be good. You won’t need a lot of power to take a rat, if it’s not too cold, you can use CO2 (using the Airforce CO2 Adapter) -keeps the report down and should generate at least 12 ft/lbs or more.
The focus at 13 yards is crystal clear, no issues. Bagged a lot of critters at night with this on my mrod. If I can get my Talon sorted out, I’ll look to using that gun more. It feels PERFECT with the Pulsar on it but I’m not getting the consistent accuracy with it yet.
Jamie
How well does that pulsar n550 focus at 13 yards?
I have both the talon and the marauder. Both great guns but I have had the marauder for a lot longer than the talon. I use a pulsar N550 and an adjustable mount by b square. The mount is key because it tilts to allow for the trajectories of any gun. I set up the marauder for night time work at my shed (13 yards) and the talon with a mk4 Leupold for day work. With a little work with either gun one could take rats easily at any distance day or night. The magazine for the mrod is a great asset but the adaptability and quality of build gives the talon the upper hand in the long run. The mrod also has a better trigger. I hope this helps.
if you live in California, it’s illegal to use a night vision scope on a rifle. 🙁
and…a true, night vision rifle scope would set you back into the four figures, probably as much, or more, than the cost of the airgun
as you well know…rats are not armor plated and the lower fpe is adequate; i think i’d opt for the laser or a red lens flashlight. I’ve shot rats with a Beeman R-10, with open sights, at close range, and had the pass thru’s here in the rural setting i live in so i certainly understand your concern. perhaps the Hammerli on CO2, with red lens FL would be an advantage? another good one might be a silenced QB78 repeater?
personally, i prefer open sight at closer ranges…i find sight/target acquisition much quicker.
Seriously? ‘snypercat’ is your mom? Does she have a bf?
Dunno, I think if you were from the UK you would have said: “That’s me mum”!
(Hey, I watch “Misfits”, so I know.) LOL
That’s my mom
I find the quieter I am then the more rats I see. They will hide longer the more of a disturbance you make. I started out shooting a 15 fpe springer that has a “moderate” report when fired, but it sure sounded loud in the darkness when fired. I didn’t realize how loud it was until i switched over to a quiet HW30S shooting 8 fpe and the very quiet 2200KT/w TKO. You will still shoot some rats with something loud, but I just found they ran off less and came back quicker the quieter I was.
Hell no, don’t pay that much for an IR light. At least starting out. I tried nightvision using a Sony video camera with their built in nightvision capabilities. It worked but was awkward to use because I had to hold the gun up high and scan as I walked around. The field of view is very narrow so it was very hard to scan lots of area.
If you order from DX also get one of these: http://dx.com/p/156089
There is a gal in the UK who has a lot of ratting vids — ‘name there is ‘snypercat’. Part of her system uses a small metal stool with an arm on it for the gun. So she’s seated, looking down into the Sony camera’s video screen, firing away. She uses an HW100. You can look her up on YT.
I’m in Virginia. Yes, the cold can get to you but I don’t go in the dead of winter.
I find the quieter I am then the more rats I see. They will hide longer the more of a disturbance you make. I started out shooting a 15 fpe springer that has a “moderate” report when fired, but it sure sounded loud in the darkness when fired. I didn’t realize how loud it was until i switched over to a quiet HW30S shooting 8 fpe and the very quiet 2200KT/w TKO. You will still shoot some rats with something loud, but I just found they ran off less and came back quicker the quieter I was.
Hell no, don’t pay that much for an IR light. At least starting out. I bought mine on eBay but see the seller no longer carries it. But it is the same model as this one. You can search and see several folks carry it. The emitter can be swapped out for a better/more powerful one if you decide you need a brighter IR light. I would get one of these and see how it works for your setup before looking into more expensive lights and/or brighter bulbs. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UltraFire-5W-Infrared-IR-CREE-LED-CR123A-16340-1-8650-Torch-with-Pouch-WF501B-/141043369956?pt=UK_SportsLeisure_Camping_LightsLanternsTorches&hash=item20d6d707e4 (this style light uses the small CR123 batteries but most use the 18650 style which are more expensive but last far, far longer than typical AA batteries. There is more upfront investment in the batteries and charger but I am glad I made the plunge as I now use those batteries in other fun lights I have bought).
I tried nightvision using a Sony video camera with their built in nightvision capabilities. It worked but was awkward to use because I had to hold the gun up high and scan as I walked around. The field of view is very narrow so it was very hard to scan lots of area. It just depends on your hunting grounds. Most of the people on youtube using nightvision for rats seem to have an ideal setup where they can sit and wait for rats to arrive. That makes it easy to watch a small area for activity. But I am actively walking around a dairy farm and thus constantly scanning. It was too tedious to keep looking thru a tiny screen and only able to see such a small area ahead of me. Nightvision is fun and you can see rats you normally would not see but isn’t always required.
Instead I am doing just fine with your standard $10 red LED flashlight. I use this red LED light: http://dx.com/p/20333 . It is actually too bright for my tastes when the battery is fresh and I feel scares off about 1/3 of the rats. So I put a small scope cover over the light bezel and put a layer or two of scotch tape over it as a cheap diffuser. Works great, takes the edge off the light glare and creates more of a glow. Their beedy little eyes light up just fine and they stick around a few seconds longer (all I need).
If you order from DX also get one of these: http://dx.com/p/156089
I started with a 15 fpe rifle but every shot was a pass-thru that ricocheted loudly off whatever was in the background. In my case this was farm equipment and cows. I don’t know that I ever hit a cow but I quickly decided that had to change. I tried other things but eventually switched to a 8 fpe rifle (.22 HW30s) that worked very, very well. It was quiet and the few ricochets I had little remaining energy.
After slaying hundreds I got bored and thought a pistol would be different, so bought a Crosman custom shop 2300KT (.22). It has a 10″ barrel, TKO LDC and a BugBuster scope (and a red led flashlight). This worked so-so…I still popped a lot of rats but my accuracy decreased and kill ratio went down. I put the carbine stock on it and now have it just right! :4: Power is around 6.5 fpe which has proven perfectly adequate.
My advice is to go lower on the power. Even 12 fpe spells trouble with the ricochets it will produce. My rats drop stone dead when drilled with the 6.5 and 8 fpe guns, the ones I shot with 15 and 19 fpe guns acted just the same so there is no special effect to more power. And using the pistol is personal choice but head-shooting 50 in a night with a rifle is more fun than 25 with a pistol. If you go pistol at least get one with a carbine stock option.
I single load, is not a problem. Trust me, you will get very proficient digging another pellet from your pocket and loading it. I recommend .22 as they are easier to handle in the dark and identify the head/skirt by feel. I bought a HPA converted Hammerli awhile back thinking I wanted a magazine fed gun for quicker shots, but keeping count of the remaining shots while navigating a dark, dirty barnyard was beyond me. And reloading that magazine a pain too. Has been much easier to just keep a pocketful of pellets and load as I go. Some areas of the farm get crazy and I can be a reloading rat-slaying machine.
I really appreciate your input. Going lower on power opens up more possibilities. At that power level, I’m considering even my Crossman 1077 (inexpensive, but semi-auto, but only CO2) if the temperatures were warm enough. I’m going back and forth between the P-rod+stock and the Talon SS+MM-tank. Concerning your experience with needing to count magazine shots; I’m trying to predict the effect of cold temperatures here in Illinois in the fall in trying to keep my fingers nimble enough to continuously load a single-shot AG. What climate are you hailing from?
Any pistol I would use would immediately grow a stock. If I got into a serious infestation as you describe, then if I could carry more than one gun, I could pull out the 1077 and deploy a lot of low-powered lead quickly.
Please comment as to the effects of airgun muzzle sounds and any types of lights on the rats. I see you show one of your guns with a TKO added.
What do you use as a light source? I was looking at this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181172476103?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Or have you found something less costly?
Thanks so much for your post.
Thom
I shoot a lot of rats. Like you mine are up close and in barns, often in complete darkness.
I started with a 15 fpe rifle but every shot was a pass-thru that ricocheted loudly off whatever was in the background. In my case this was farm equipment and cows. I don’t know that I ever hit a cow but I quickly decided that had to change. I tried other things but eventually switched to a 8 fpe rifle (.22 HW30s) that worked very, very well. It was quiet and the few ricochets I had little remaining energy.
After slaying hundreds I got bored and thought a pistol would be different, so bought a Crosman custom shop 2300KT (.22). It has a 10″ barrel, TKO LDC and a BugBuster scope (and a red led flashlight). This worked so-so…I still popped a lot of rats but my accuracy decreased and kill ratio went down. I put the carbine stock on it and now have it just right! :4: Power is around 6.5 fpe which has proven perfectly adequate.
My advice is to go lower on the power. Even 12 fpe spells trouble with the ricochets it will produce. My rats drop stone dead when drilled with the 6.5 and 8 fpe guns, the ones I shot with 15 and 19 fpe guns acted just the same so there is no special effect to more power. And using the pistol is personal choice but head-shooting 50 in a night with a rifle is more fun than 25 with a pistol. If you go pistol at least get one with a carbine stock option.
I single load, is not a problem. Trust me, you will get very proficient digging another pellet from your pocket and loading it. I recommend .22 as they are easier to handle in the dark and identify the head/skirt by feel. I bought a HPA converted Hammerli awhile back thinking I wanted a magazine fed gun for quicker shots, but keeping count of the remaining shots while navigating a dark, dirty barnyard was beyond me. And reloading that magazine a pain too. Has been much easier to just keep a pocketful of pellets and load as I go. Some areas of the farm get crazy and I can be a reloading rat-slaying machine.
I’m still working on those mil-dots. I have noticed that some reticles do have the mill dots on both sides of the center. Couldn’t this also be sighted-in if the pellet went higher?
Problem: some of the better scopes, like Hawke, have too-far minimum parallax distances. The MTC scopes — from the UK — may solve this — I’m working on possibly importing one.
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Parroting Wahoowad’s comments.
Having participated in many a Rat Safari in Dairy farms here in the Pacific Northwest shooting many different pellet guns, if purchasing an air gun for Rat hunts on farms, lower power IS better for delivering humane kills! Guns I have plugged Rats with;
Logun Gladiator in .22″
Air Arms S200-B in 22″ and 10 shot magazine
Beeman R9 in .177″ tuned by Russ Best
Beeman R7 in .177″ also tuned by Russ Best
Theoben Slr 98 in .22″
Crossman 1760
Gamo Delta in .177″ (was a test knowing that lower power was yielding more kills vs run offs, this POS was actually somewhat worthy)
Short and sweet is larger the diameter the projectile the better, the falter the face of the projectile the better for dissipating the energy into the target the better, (hydraulic shock), if getting pass throughs, less power helps to allow the pellet to deliver its energy into the prey. The R7 in .177″ at chronied 680FPS was getting far more pass throughs and run off wounded with wad cutters than the S200 in .22″ shooting JSB Exacts at chronied 710FPS, (round head).
Key is being able to deposit the energy of the pellet into the rat as effectively as possible. Larger the surface area and flatter the head the better.
My favorite rat rig is hands down the S200-B in .22″ and 10 shot magazine. Light weight, carbon fiber LDC for quiet operation that doesn’t disturb the other nearby vermon, and the 10 shot magazine allowing a quick follow up shot if the first shot was misplaced, (it happens). 2nd favorites was my Logun Gladiator, equivalent accuracy, smoothness, bazzilion shots per fill, on lowest power setting of course. Only reason it is second is little heavier and much longer length vs S200-B requiring more attention to packing in the tight confines of the barns. Crossman 1760 i a good third.
If choosing between the M-rod and AF, I place a lot of value in the ability to have a quick follow up shot and being as the rat safaris are such close range, 5 feet to 40 feet typical in barns 30 yards max, M-rod gets nod. If the gun is to be more multi purpose such as crows and starlings at long range during the day the A/F with its adjustable power and super accurate groupings at long range gets the nod.
AirForce has SOO many things going for it, only option missing multi shot option, I honestly feel sales would at least double, possibly triple.
Our optics are common A/O scopes with 10 yard focus, We use MiniMags converted to SUPER brite RED LED with tactical switch on stock. Listen for the tell tale rat speak squeaks, shoulder and point in general direction, depress tactical button button, red LED illuminates eyeballs bright red, aim between the red eyes and squeeze….
Logun Gladiator in full rat trim;
Approx 75% of one nights harvest;
