bottle dump/vel for 32g pell. at diff psi fills
Been playin with the .22 condor , trying to see what velocity i can run heavy pellets , and stay at 2000 psi, and the 21 g will go into the 1132 range ,
was trying out 32 g, and had a string going like this 969.890.940.955.937 ,
opened up the top hat from .085 , Pw 10 to like .095 and the tank dumped, 😯 😯
I thought well shit, 😳
Then went and cleaned my britches out.
The 32g. Euigens are real hard to get into the barrel and i guess the back pressure held the valve open at the 2000 psi level.
My condor valve is fully polished open up and modded and the spring is only tight enough to close the valve fully with no air in the tank, and have thread tape on the threads to keep the spring retainer nut from backing off.
So i guess this is what happens when you run a .177 barrel on a condor.?? with the back pressure and low valve return spring pressure.
I put 1000 in it and shot 21.g pells and it did fine, 14 g and fine.
the tried the 32.g with 1000 back in and it did the same thing,
SO after this i went to bed, but do you guys think this is why it did it. If i fill to higher pressure say 2700 or so it will probably will not do it , but i really don’t want it to dump again.
It was fine until i opened up the top hat that last bit.
I am trying to see what the max vel. would be if i was running a 2000 reg for these pellets .don’t know if i can max out the 32g. pells with this 2000 psi pressure, will play some more and see, i will turn the top hat back down and try and shoot some more 32g, and see what happens.
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yes RC that’s about how see it , in some of my ramblings on here some where i stated that i thought that the e tac did not have enough volume for the heavier pellets ,because i was getting more velocity at 2000 with the 21 grain and larger pellets. than the etac & reg were putting out at the same psi,
I wonder what it would take to get the same vellocity, volume wise , for the 32 grain .22 to 1000 fps.
Powderburner,
From what I have read and the way I understand things, I do not think your velocity tests for what speed the 32 Gr EJ will do are valid.
Here is why. You have bled your tank down to 2000PSI to duplicate the 2000 PSI regulator.
But you are drawing 2000PSI from the entire Condor tank, and when you have a regulator, you are drawing it from only the much smaller regulated chamber. It is more of a volume thing than a pressure thing.
I think Eddie was wondering the same thing, and Pab explained it along these same lines in the post about the regulator that MM had posted.
MM, am I all wet here and flunked this course ❓
As far as cleaning out your underwear, my stains never came out after it happend to me. 😆
Roachcreek
NIce info Techmod ,
i assumed the valve preload was causing this, like when i was shooting the 32 grain pellets at low tank psi, when i polished my valve i put the retainer nut back on with just enough pressure to close the valve. so it’s probably lighter than the factory set up.
I have had some major problems with tank dumps on the Talon SS .177.
I had a dodgey valve from the get go. Marmot & Yellow Ninja have heard all about this, Funny thing, however interesting.
I have done the below valve mod to my Talon SS polising and porting everything.
[url=http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12813&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0]Condor Valve Mod[/url] & Here
[url=http://www.talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1272&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=]Fine tuning valve tips & mod’s[/url]
The TH was polished, stem opened to 3mm, valve stem feed holes ported, outer stem polished, stem exit kinfe edged, air inlet spring retainer enlarged, coned, polished, spring ends ground flat, Delrin valve 10 degree cut, Brass sealing area 10 degree cut and Delrin / brass faces lapped for seal.
When I cut the TSS Valve Sealing Face’s the delrin valve lost some depth against the return spring less preload.
This cut also exposed a bit more of the stem & feed holes. I used a very fine parting bit to cut the Delrin I.D to let the valve stem drop in further. After that the stem was a much more secure fit in the delrin valve.
First test proved it sealed to about 3.2k according to my pump.
It would also dry fire without a problem. First pellet through it on low PW caused a dump. Scary & loud for the first time dump experiance. It dumped to 1.8k. I pumped it up to about 2.2k and checked again. Same thing happened down to 1.8k. My valve spring retainer was screwed all the way in so I figured that a spacer was needed to increase the valve spring preload.
I have some spacers that I made up for this and have the thicknesses noted just for my records. Cutting a long story to the point. Needed 2 spacers total 3.38mm and it would shoot without dumping up to 2490psi.
If you pumped to 2.5k the first shot would do a micro dump down to about 2.2k. I have no velocity numbers and no Pro chrono (re-phrased for PC!).
However, shooting 10 grain TS-10’s out to 70 yards with what sounded like good energy hitting steel spinners 2″ in diameter. I shot about 60 pellets until I noted a slight drop in POI. Then shot a lighter pellet Gamo Pro Match at a 20 yard target about 40-50 more times.
Started out using the tank from 2490 all the way down to 800psi.
Thats a bucket load of shots from a TSS.
To be perfectly honest the fact that you could reach out to 70 yards consistantly for about 60 shots then come to your back yard and shoot lighter pellets for about another 50 shots was amazing.
However being the modder and not ever acvheiving the 3k fill and shoot goal, I had to make another spacer and get in there until satisfied. So made a spacer at 4.88mm whacked it in there bolted it up. Checked the preload prior to filling and thought to myself shit thats pretty hard, wonder if the TSS hammer would move it? Filled to 3.2K and just to be sure, to be sure.
Cranked the PW all the way up and used a heavy pellet for first shot.
Bam!! No dump, but damn has this thing just gotten louder?
Lucky I already know that when testing in a small room with a block of 4×2 as a penetration guage, use hearing protection.
I also learned that lesson when outside doing a tank dump from 3k down to 1.8k. So the Goal of repairing the TSS valve was achieved.
If you can be bothered reading all this you will possibly accertain that tank dumps can be caused by extended duration. Now in my case the valve face shape could have caused extended opening or simply just lack of preload. If you have not touched the valve face just add preload to stop the tank from dumping.
Also Marmot mentioned the importance of a clean action so the Valve can freely open and close with the least amount of friction.
😉
Jim
Jim, I’m wondering with the TH so low, at 0.030″, is it possible that the valve is not open long enough to receive a full 2500 PSI? What would a string look like with that .177 x 2500 PSI SETTING? That probably is not a practical use of the 2500 Reg. but something I am apt to try.
It is possible to slow the pellets way down, even with the 2500psi reg. However, if you are not looking for huge power, the 2000psi regs are more forgiving. I found the top hat on the 2500 was about .030 out to get 800fps with the .177 and Tony’s valve. It is a tricky setup, though, because at that tiny setting, 1/16 turn makes a huge difference.
Jim
JSB must have had something in mind when they designed the Monster???
I would say your right about the speed, My Marauder does really weel with this pellet. I’m going to try them out of my Condor over the holiday weekend.
I think that if you keep them in the mid 800’s and say around 2500 psi, They would hold up.
The other thing that I have been looking at is the way the action works on both guns. That might be the determining factor as to whether or not the Monster will work with the Air Force rifles.
6.6 psi per shot is good!
I will probably need more than one regulator too, but hell i cant make up my mind.
Maybe set up 2 tankswith different regs.
which way did you go , the condor bottle regulator or the other one…
I haven’t seen anything about how much the speed can be slowed down. There may be a limit or a tricky balance of TH and PW.
I went with the E-TacReg for AF Bottle for my first one. Less expense to begin with but less potential air volume. I figure when I get a second one I’ll get the Paint Ball Bottle. That will be a double bonus with more air volume and at a lower PSI I could shoot targets a lot longer. Since you primarily do targets, you could go the extra for the Reg. for Paint Ball Bottle and enjoy. With the AF Bottle Reg. I figure on fewer shots but it’ll be good for hunting with the heavier pellets. Also, I need the exercise doing the pumping.
wonder why the difference in what your seeing in the 25 grain pellet being less than what i have found with the 28 g . pellet.
Probably the reason no-one seems to like the 25.4 g JSB Monsters so far is the different shape. The Monster is mostly cylindrical with a shorter, much thinner skirt. The EJs have more of a waist and thick deep skirt. So far no-one has found a velocity that gives tight groups with the 25.4 g JSB Monsters. It might be a matter of slowing it down rather than blasting it’s thin skirt up its behind.
JSB must have had something in mind when they designed the Monster???
PB, your figures for the 28 g EJ at 2500 PSI looks promising for my 2500 E-Tac Reg. What range of FPS do you get the best groups? I’d hate to have to add a ‘lead sled’ to my testing equipment as while that would help determine the best velocity’s, it would take away my needed shooting practice.
Another reason to go for the E-Tac Reg is the Foster fitting allowing refill without wasting 1-2 shots to re-seat the valve. And, as I see it we can throw out that old bath tub curve all together.
I think the 2500 will work just fine for you, you can always turn the gun down.
I shoot more of the lighter pellets and if i get a 2500 i can probably turn the gun back for the lighter pellets , but that would put me filling to 3000 or at least to 2800 and the big tank would not last near as long between fill ups.
I will probably need more than one regulator too, but hell i cant make up my mind.
Maybe set up 2 tankswith different regs.
which way did you go , the condor bottle regulator or the other one.
Make you one of these to seat those tight ass 32g. euijins
the 2000 psi is all you need for all the way up to 21 g. pellets. for up to 1000fps. +
PB, you have a lot of valuable data in your posts and it will take me a long time to digest it and work it into my testing (fun screwing around). Mostly I appreciate the info on “FPS vs Group Tightness”. I’m to inconsistent YET to tell if it’s the velocity or change of the wind that gives me a few close hits.
I prefer to do things a little different and set myself up for a potential failure or in the odd case be considered a nerd. I want more than one Reg. anyway. I think the 2500 will prove to be the best for .25 cal. that I don’t have, yet.
In .22 cal. I have a lot of ammo to experiment with. I have a couple tins of EJs in both 33.4 and 28 g but do not like the tightness of the 33s especially in the middle of the winter. I have 600 25.4 g JSB Monsters that no-one so far likes. I have maybe a sleeve of 21.14 g Match Grade H&N Barcudas. Also, 500 15.8 g JSB Exacts, a tin or so of Crow Mags, F&T Specials, and Kodiaks. Dang it, I want to try ’em all! Ahh, no more sloppy loose Daisy’s and none of those slightly magnetic gold colored crapola’s.
I know what you are saying about lower PSI giving more shots and that gives more consistency but now with a Reg. the basic variable of PSI is all but eliminated and using Marmot_Malitia’s method of acquiring the Max stable adjustment for each different pellet is a key to finding the sweet spot of both Top Hat & Power Wheel adjustments. Once that Max fps is found with the Regulated PSI, the PW and/or TH may be fine tuned down to achieve the desired velocity range of. With interchangeable valve pin/THs set for the desired proven TH setting, it should be easy to switch pellets in mid fill.
A 2000 or 2200 PSI Reg. may be best for 21 g or lower pellets and may give more shots but we’ll just have to adjust for the same FPS and see what happens. I appreciate that more shooters are opting for the 2000 Reg. I may buy one later, but for now I feel the 2500 will give me an option to find the best FPS for the heavier .22s and I can go to the .25 barrel later when the first wave of .25 shooters bring the cost or production and price down.
MM i am trying to figure out where i would be with the regulator, at differant psi.
I only get 900 to 920 feet per second with the 32g pellets at 2000 psi. the best i can see.
but i can get well into the 970’s with the 28 g. ?? ,
i still have checking to do with this stuff , im haveing fun
wonder why the difference in what your seeing in the 25 grain pellet being less than what i have found with the 28 g . pellet.
I believe he said he starts with PW=Max and TH =starting around 0.060″, then gradually turns up the TH until the increase in fps drops off.
I hope I’m thinking right as I plan on adjusting for the max fps and then turning down the PW 1st and then TH to get into the pellets accuracy sweet spot.
Lurker #1 has it right. I up the PW then move the tophat out until there is no noticeable increase in velocity. After that, air is just wasted waiting for the valve to close. Then move the PW lower until the velocity just starts to drop. This will eliminate any excessive hammering of the tophat. This has been best for me.
I don’t have any .22 Eunjin 32gr. However, the JSB 25.4 will do 915 on the 2500psi reg. Don’t think you’ll get near 1000fps at 2k with the 32gr.
Regards,
Jim
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A larger tank that would safely hold 3500 PS1 , and a 3500 in 2800 out regulator. 💡
Is there such a thing?
Roachcreek