300 bar and numbers with Helium
Hi everybody!!!
I have tried with haelium in different ways, and I reach the conclusion:
It can reach a 25% more velocity than air.
What does it mean?
If you have your stock rifle, haelium gives you a 25/% more velocity.
So, if you cut the choke, change the hammer, spring, valve, you change the barrel for a barrel more “fast” etc etc etc., you will be a 25% faster that you ever been with ANY modification.
So the question:
WITH AIR: does anybody have tried with a standard condor with 300 bar?
if any of you have performed a modification, can you specify what kind of modification and the chronys with 300 bar?
Thanks.
Gustavo.
All Replies
Cygnus, thanks for the input.
I have a new breech, hammer and tank. The tank works at 4500psi and is tested to 7500psi. I have many regulators. 4500-3000 4500-2500 and free-flow. I have also a thin remote that is tested to work at 300 bar.
You’re ritgth about the stress of the system. If it brakes, I will change it.
By the way, any of you have fired with 300 bar?
Gustavo.
Just to be clear, I’m not advocating the use of hydrogen.
If you were able to safely handle hydrogen (storage, transport, transfer) and fill a tank (let’s say a tank with a working pressure of 4500psi), and had the trigger, sear and frame capable of handling the static and dynamic loads, you could probably maximize the performance of your gun at a given temperature. It would be highly unlikely to explode because hydrogen does not just go boom on it’s own. It needs oxygen and there won’t be enough in the flow until barrel exit (shoot across a candle a few feet from the muzzle for a good show). Oh, it would be a good idea not to shoot indoors where the hydrogen from your shots and leaky tank fitting might find an ignition source…
If you really want to pump things up, you’ll have to heat the hydrogen to very high temperatures. This will increase the local speed of sound and allow those last few fps.
So, figure out a way to handle hydrogen without leaks, find a way to fill a tank that has had all the air (source of oxygen) removed first, find a well ventilated area free of ignition sources and have fun with the chrony!
the short.:
DONT USE HYDROGEN or OXYGEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HELIUM and NITROGEN is SAFE
300 bar is harder to knock open….stronger spring, valvestem, heavier hammer, and upgraded trigger parts would be needed….you also need a bottle with a WORKING pressure of 300 bar….testing pressure is for testing…working pressure for everyday use !!!!
the long.:
its dangerous to confuse helium with hydrogen….they have nothing to do with each other….hydrogen is flammable, and whats inside the Hindenburg…it burned and crashed…people stopped using hydrogen…..if you where to put hydrogen into an airgun….i would act as a fuel, the rapid release of the gas would probably make it explode at some point !
DONT USE OXYGEN EITHER !!!! oxygen oxidizes stuff….turning stuff into fuel….once you have fuel and oxygen you just need to add a bit of energy in form of say decompression/friction what ever….and the oxygen will make just about anything burn, from the plastics in the valve to the aluminum frame/receiver, and it will be violent ! and yes aluminum can burn, anything can ….just a matter of conditions
HELIUM is safe, not a good choice cause of its small atoms, simply put the gun will leak and decompress slowly…so fun to use right after its been filled….but walking around the woods with it for hours and you will prolly have wasted alot of pressure to leaks….and end up with lower power than you would have on air
NITROGEN is safe…our atmosphere is around 70% nitrogen….pure nitrogen fills will add a tiny bit of power….its a dry gas=less corrosion in gun
filling your gun above 200 bar with stock spring will limit power or in worst case cause valve lock…the hammer not able to knock the valve open to let out pressure…..filling to 300 bar is plain stupid…the tanks have a working pressure of 200 bar….testing pressure and working pressure is totally different measures….when testing a tank you measure how much elasticity the material have….when metal gets worked it gets brittle….filling and decompressing tank expands and contracts the tank working the metal….in airgun use this is not much as we dont empty of our tanks very often….but divers who consumes the entire tank puts their bottle through quite a bit of stress….if a tank has lost its elasticity, that means the metal have become brittle…brittle metals can fracture unpredictably….
should you find a tank that has a working pressure of 300 bar, you would need to upgrade hammer and spring to get the force necessary to knock the valve open….in airforce guns this would put alot of stress on the trigger parts, and most likely the sear will fail….if you mod the trigger sear as described elsewhere you still risk the metal bending in the trigger part, unless your going to make your own trigger parts, which is not that hard….use tool steel, not titanium (too brittle to be safe when using heavy springs)
remember PSI means pressure pr square inch….lets assume our valve is like 1/4″…3000 psi (200 bar) would mean the hammer have to overcome 750 pounds….upping pressure to 4350 psi (300 bar)….1087 pounds to overcome !
the trigger parts are already stressed in the condor with that little extra preload on the hammer….there are alot of condors where the sears can hold the hammer when preload is set at max…expecting 300 pounds worth of force from a stronger hammer spring is asking for trouble ….but it can be done with a little ingenuity
if you could run a gun directly off 300 bar, manufacturers would have done it….but the 300 bar guns you see out there thats capable of 300 bar are all regulated down to a more workable pressure off 200 or less bar
Jerry. Thanks for your observations.
As you have mentioned, HAELIUM, NEVER HIDROGEN FOLKS!!!
Second, You’re right about fpe and caliber, but Iove to reach the limits of the things. Velocity, accuracy, and a lot of fpe with our water gun is our daily dream!!!
Third, yes, I have a 9mm LWbarrel customized to a condor and a shotgun with .50 sabots to shoot with haelium.
I have also a 6.35 LW barrel, that have a nice accuracy with some “jerry slugs” (I have to buy more)
Thanks again and, of course, I’ll give you posted.
REMEMBER FRIENDS, HAELIUM, NOT HIDROGEN, NOT OXIGEN, PLEASE.
Gustavo.
I think he has a 9mm barrel in that condor 😈
Why, I think I recall something about some airship having a mishap… 😆
Of course the world’s fastest “air”guns actually do use hydrogen. Look them up at some NASA site…totally irrelevent to our usage but cool stuff.
gabuin,
I think you’re wasting your time and money. If all you need to do is kill a 200kg beast, buy a strong big bore and be done. Spend your barrel and helium cash on slugs and targets to sight in at several ranges and gather valuable practice.
There are several guys making big bores that can do the job and every now and then one of these guns are listed for sale on the forums. I suppose one of these guns might cost more than a barrel and a helium tank and regulator but after all is said and done, I doubt it.
You should probably consider the maximum effectiveness you are likely to achieve as well. Zipping a .22 along at 1400fps (about 30% more than using air) is just going to get you the equivalent of a strong .22 pb and probably average accuracy at best. Using the 9mm will be much better and you can probably work that up to 300fpe with significant work but you can go buy that performance in a few minutes online…
Yes, given a gun that can take higher pressures and doesn’t leak, helium can be useful for velocity (I rarely see helium compared to air at identical pressures…). However, in airguns, mass rules. If you want to do more damage at POI, you are far better served by shooting bigger slugs than working for marginal gains in velocity.
My advice is; go up in caliber and slug mass if killing that 200kg animal is the goal. If you really just want to get to a high velocity, please keep us posted on your progress!
Isn’t the Hindenburg filled with hydrogen? That thing carries a number of passengers, and a leak could be hazardous. I haven’t kept up with its latest technology, but I hear they want to start making trips across the Atlantic!
I’ve always felt those giant gas bags were not safe. I’ll check the Arkansas Gazette next month to see if they have any updates in their technology section.
Hoot 😯
Yes, the helium molecules are smaller, much smaller, than o2 and n2. It tends to find its way out…
Won’t helium leak through about everything even when it’s not being fired though?
Yes it is, because beer with friends taste better!!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂
I understand better.
If you have a practical need to punch a heavy projectile out and into a critters hide, then whatever gives you the extra pressure and FPE becomes practical.
Makes sense now.
Regards,
Hoot 😯
HIDROGEN IS TOO EXPLOSIVE to my purposes, I prefer Helium.
Yes, it is more expensive, but I want to reach the limits of the concept of airgunning, and, of course, give some bullets in kill zone to a 200kgm animal and kill it and eat it with friends and beer!!!!!
For normal hunting, my condor with air is perfect, and for accuracy, there are another options.
Gustavo.
The idea is with an HPA of 4500psi, with various regulators, the first is at 3000 psi for example, and of course there is a connection without regulation.
The idea is too to use a firearm barrel and bullets of a firearm, with a twist to achieve very fast velocities and accuracy tot hunt.
Regarding the weight of the bullets, yes, I have a 9mm LW to play, and the .22 firearm barrel is coming.
If you’re going to fire custom swaged pellets or experiment with .22lr/naa black powder rounds for absolute longest range or terminal ballistics and not backyard fun I guess this makes sense but helium is expensive. You could use Hydrogen, which is even lighter and cheaper but you would need to use a carbon fiber tank because of hydrogen embrittlement.
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How about methane? 😆