Airforce Piccanty rail modification…
thought I would field this one past the fine folks here…
Hate the stock set up on the AF rifles. Building a sidecocker 9mm and plan on removing the carry handle nonsence and fitting it up with a full length 1913 Piccanty rail. Picked up a 32″ 1913 extrusion but would like to hear some ideas on permenently installing it.
leaning towards after cutting the handle off having the existing rail milled rectangular witha matching mortice cut on the underside of the 1913 rail.
At the front the new 1913 rail will be secured to the tube with a series of screws with two more screws at the rear then finally TIG welded along the seam and fiinish machined prior to bead blast and Ceramic coating.
Does this sound like a good route on this?
Have a Swan Sleeve with the pop up rear and a Troy Arms folding front sight that will be going on this rig which will also allow use of my throw lever ARMS optics bases. Site plane will be perfect as I am using one of Marmot Militias drooped ETACS with a 68ci JDS bottle
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Holy crap! I’d heard the AR platform was sensitive but not that sensitive…!! How can you tell they are accurate when the mod has been done, does the handle stiffen the frame?
I had assumed nothing about your ventures in AG and PB except for the fact that you had done many powderburner modifications successfully. Yes, way more than me, but I will have to experience the AR platform flex first hand, so I can compare it to the TalonSS…
But, I can tell you that just because it is aluminum doesn’t mean it is strong and resists flex or make it the same as something else. I can make a carbon fiber part that is as weak as a dried noodle if I don’t follow the proper layup schedule… The materials are the same but how the material is shaped is what really matters, right? 🙂 That’s all i’m saying, the AF shape is fucked from the get go…
I haven’t shot an AR but do know that my two midlevel target rifles are not even close to being as hold sensitive as my Talon. If the AR as bad as you say who the fuck would ever want to go to war with such a noodle for a rifle? 😕 Is the military into killing soldiers or giving them what they need to win? That’s terrifying! 😯
I look forward to seeing what you come up with for a frame. I have a feeling it’s going to look good! 😉
I’d still like to know how the frame would do after a braze or weld…
respect what you are assuming but I venture to state I simply do not find the AF frame nearly as flimsy as you make it out to be…
Tell you what, earlier you made another assumptive post regarding how you doubted an AR’s POI could be affected by application of similar side pressures…
You are wrong on that one, dead wrong. A free float hand guard helps some but overall the AR platform is one of the most pressure sensitive ones ever designed. Why do you think the military refers to the AR sling as a “Carry Strap”? Reason is if you use a sling like a sling on a stock AR you can shift POI a few inches at a 100 yards to one side or the other. Another issue was with the original clip on bipods changing POI in prone shooting. The real horseshit deal were the clowns that clamped an M60 bipod on a pencildick AR barrel and couldn’t figure out why the damn guns POI could vary by a FOOT at a 100 yards depending on how you deployed it…LOL
This all had to do with the slip fit connection between the barrel extension and upper receiver secured by the barrel nut and maintained at military, {read looser} tolerances.
This does not begin to address lateral & vertical play between receiver halves secured by push pins and don’t even get me started on that piece of shit sliding carbine stock.
My experience? Built close to a 100 ARs over the past 30 years in everything from .17 Remington to .50AE and in about every configuration imaginable…you are out of your depth when it comes to my experience with ARs and numerous other platforms.
Double guns are even more insane…still fine tuning the regulation on a .50-110 set of barrels I crafted for a vintage under-lever Westley Richards double bbl shotgun action.
Yeah AG design is different…no argument there but materials are not. If a process that has been used for GENERATIONS to affix ventilated ribs to rifle & shotgun barrels and has been in use since the 1700s or earlier to join thin, often laminated Damascus shotgun tubes together successfully I do tend to think you are overstating the hazards of low temp brazing. Again we are talking about things that have been commonly done for decades. Can a failure occur? Certainly but its far from a given.
It seems there are at least a couple folks here who have chopped their handles to create 1913 flat tops that seem quite happy with the results. By your reckoning these conversions have to be fragile as eggshells 😆
If you had taken the time to scroll back a few posts you would have discovered I have decided to build out a whole new frame tube anyways 😀 Had nothing to do with reservations about brazing either. Was totally about not using the half assed AF frame as I do have many issues with the way they configured the trigger group and I really do not require that silly power wheel on a 9mm 😀
oh and PS…I am hardly some recent convert to AGs
was importing vintage English and Euro big bore AGs way back in the 70s when they were dogs on the market. Did quite a bit of Black Powder shooting with original arms…started using high end English pneumatic stalking rifles just to annoy the powder burning crowd! Yes huge differences between AG & PB but just as many similarities.
Can you change the poi of a shotgun by pressing your cheek against the comb of the stock?
Again, this airgun is NOTHING like a firearm… The frame is so flexible that I can bend it with nose pressure. A steel shotgun barrel is a totally different story, I can barely bend it over my knee.
I understand there are methods but this particular rifle is fragile at best. Did you try the poi change from putting side pressure on the frame? You ‘ll what to check that out, you may find that making comparisons to pb’s is more or less a waste of time…
One guy here had various military defense powder burner contracts and couldn’t make proper valve stem threads to save his life (he still won’t admit the part was improperly designed and/or improperly machine, does he even know the difference?). Sure the threads probably would have been fine for a pb but it was a TOTAL failure in this particular airgun… I’d hate to assume that gov contract providers didn’t know what they were doing, but the evidence is there to say it’s could be the case… 😕 So I apologize if I don’t buy the “It works for powderburners.” line…
I’m not trying to be a dick but test the side pressure poi changes with the AF rifle and then honestly tell me you can heat that sucker anywhere close to even just the brazing temperature without effecting it’s alignment.
COR-AL rods have been around for years. Great product. There are a number of new low temp/high fill alloy brazing rods available currently as well. Check your local welding supply joint, its off the shelf here in Northern MN or do a web search online for “aluminum brazing rod”.
Warping is always an issue when you are using heat on metal, particularly in tubing form but its not high art, I mean after all, how are double barreled shotguns assembled? Yep a soldered or brazed joint under the ribs. Same with most ventilated ribs, barrel mounted sight bases, ect. As I noted this isnt rocket science, just knowing technique.
Yeah…hear you on the Crosman forum & no, these discussions as a rule just don’t seem to come up on other AG forums outside a little on the Yellow.
then again you cant swear on them, can’t openly discuss airgun silencers on most of them unless you use work around words like “pickle” or “LDC”, quite a few wont even allow discussions on increasing power because of the perceived legal liabilities when they are based in the UK. You see folks whining about Big Bores on them not to mention non traditional AGs like the AF line as being a threat to their Red Ryder and God Forbid if you get a bit terse with another poster like Walter sometimes does…LOL
This is a heck of a community!
I am an X truck mechanic/ welder and torchman. From my point of view its crazy to try. thats why I would not. Does not mean that a real welder could not do the job. He obviously has a little (a hell of a lot) more knowledge of welding than me (and most here probably). True craftsman can defy the odds many times. Have at it let us know how you make out. We may all learn something. Never friggin heard of that brazing rod man where do you get this stuff from? Just goes to show you how many truely talented people are on this forum. Do you think the crossman forum has this type of discussion? I love this Forum! 😀
not for what I need…
looking at cutting the lower trigger group portion of the frame off to create a bolt on unit for the new frame tube.
Could have a trigger housing unit fabricated but already have a messed up frame so what the heck
this is why I save crap most others would probably toss…LOL
I think if you reside in the USA you can purchase AF replacement parts. Directly from Airforce.
I am not sure exactly who can help you more but you will not need to savage the Condor 😀 , Just buy the parts you need.
RifRaff: Not too shabby at all…its certainly an option but after much thought I may be going an alternative direction…
Beginning to lean toward a whole new frame tube made from steel. My picatinny rail measures 32″ in length so I could run a 32″ tube which would leave six inches of empty tube forward of the muzzle to be occupied by a moderator core that will thread on the existing Career 9mm barrel threads and also serve to tension the barrel.
Have a scrap AF frame that I think I can sever the trigger group portion of the frame from and fit it to the tube via the rear screw for the tank ring and a forward screw. This approach will allow the use of a solid breech area on the top of the tube with loading “windows” on either side as well as a safety mod using an altered AR15 selector positioned behind a new redesigned trigger.
Moderator would never be super quiet, maybe a compressed pack using stainless screen washers with staggered encapsulators may be the best route. Rail would be full length, have a much more factory appearance particularly once the Swam sleeve and Troy front sight are mounted. Strength would be light years from the stock AF frame and while weight will be a bit more the balance will shift forward as its currently extremely butt heavy with the JDS 68ci tank
Still retain the WOK trigger guard and the stock AF forend
suppose I could even slot or flute the tube body…
Hate this, always refining these damn projects…
This is the same frame Yellow Ninja posted in his pic. And this is what I did with it.
Just milled the top flat, and used an epoxy made specifically for bonding aluminum. Then drilled and tapped, and bolted it to the frame. A longer rail would be just as easy to mount this way.
Its not pretty, but I wasnt after asthetics when I built it.
The side cock knob is on the other side.
Heres how she shoots, this is 15 shots at 30 yards using the Kobra red dot sight.
If you completely screw it up, so that it is nothing but a throw away. Your talking about a frame that cost 235 from Air Force, or about 130 if you get a reasonable deal on a used gun and sell the parts you do not need. Add to that your rail cost.
Frames by themselves are $110 new from AF…. as I assume he wouldn’t need to buy all the components that go with it, which is the $235 price.
Brazing steel is no biggie and doesn’t warp nearly anything like TIG welding aluminum…
Try taking your airforce rifle and putting side pressure on the bolt area while shooting. You will notice a poi change. Try holding the rifle really tight and then real loose…
All of these things will change the poi of the pellet, I seriously doubt an AR’s poi can be effected in the same way… 😕
Techmod has a good idea. That way the frame flex can be dealt with from the start and the correct rails added in the right places. Side cocking etc… 😀
considered that using steel tubing…maybe in the not too distant future
Hi,..
Is making a totally new frame out of the question! Using better material ? ❗
lets see if this pic works…sigh
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Riverside,
Your right to a point, but we all know that a AR held right is more accurate than a lot of bolt guns out of the box. Perhaps because a lot of bolt guns don’t shoot for shit either.
Go figure why?
Quit listening to these guys, don’t start an AR war and start the chips flying and make some smoke, I want to see some pictures. Your doing what a lot of us only dream of.
By the way, I used to have a drilling in 16x16x8/57. As you shot the rifle barrel past three shots quickly, it started to raise the POI drasticly.
I told people it was designed that way, so you could shoot at heards of animals running away without holding over.
Roachcreek