Bullet designs for 452 bores
Marvin,
So what do you think would happen by leaving the middle band out of the Accurate molds 458/452 425 B? Is bore friction on a big bore airgun that much of an issue?
BTW I keep looking for his lettering code ie., a, b, d, some are self explanatory but what is the B for?
Roachcreek
All Replies
I just paid for the gun, it ships out Friday. If you can avoid driving by the Wells Fargo Bank do so, the sucking from my account could cause a whirlpool and draw you in. 😆
The thing about a 45 bore, is that it does not need to expand, if you use a flat nose bullet, it will impart shock and still penetrate, after all that was what Elmer Keith was all about wasn’t it?
I spent an hour on the phone with Dan Mcvey just finshed up minutes ago, what a nice and knowledgable man, completly unassuming, but sure knows his stuff.
The barrel is an 8 grove, he says it doesn’t seem to matter which store bought 452 hard cast or soft bullet you use, and he does not remove the lube, he just shoots them.
My barrel is a 28 inch, he recommends the 400 to 430 grain range, and no need to cast a chamber plug, he says it will take an 1 3/8 inch bullet with no trouble, makes no difference if it is a LBT or what ever. He says I will be getting 900 FPS or better with the 28 with 400+ grains and 4500 PSI.
Dan H, I see Riverside has his Jack Haley on the AA Classifieds, now is your chance :lol:.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Nice find Roachcreek , you are right Riverside has his Jack Haley 452 up for sale HA ! HA ! 😆 maybe he is on Dan’s gun list now HA ! HA ! 😆 😆 here is the link to the Haley sale ! 😆
http://www.airguns.net/classifieds/show_ad.php?adNum=29910&adSort=&StartingAd=50&NumberOfPages=5
PB,
I watched my dad shoot a forked horn buck from out the window of a 49 Chev Pu when I was 5 years old. We were on a road behind the house going to turn on the headgate for our irrigation water.
I was hooked.
I got my first bow, 30 lb bow when I was 6, to my parents chargine, they did not realize they were ordering that powerful of a bow, but it delighted me. I got a 50 LB Indian Archer recurve bow when I was 15 years old, that was 46 years ago, it sits beside me as I write this.
We have to draw Rocky Mountain tags here, unless you own over 40 acres within the hunt area, then if you do not draw, you can have a Land Owners preference tag to hunt on your property for cows, if you have 160 acres you can have a bull tag.
Since I sold my land there, I have to draw, if I do not draw a rifle tag, I will hunt with a bow, so I will perhaps buy a compound bow.
I do not like the bow season as much, the bulls are easier to get then during rut, but I prefer to eat yearling cows, and I feel herds of cows are harder to hunt, most would disagree, but the bulls are loners where I hunt, and cows are in herds, it is far easier to hunt two sets of eyes than it is 30 sets of eyes.
And yes I do know what you mean.
Regards,
Roachcreek
RC
you are a hell of a writer . 🙂
I have been in the woods since before dad would let me take the guns, so i shot the bow , and still do, along with the muzzleloaders, And i do understand. I think you will know what i mean.
Dan H
Yes, over 2000 foot lbs. with conicals. here is a quick link with some info.
PB,
My last elk, four years ago, I killed with a 270 WSM with a Leupold scope with the boone and crocket reticle, first shot was 10 minutes into the season, at 408 yards, I set the correct aiming point on it and made the shot prone, it slowed the great beast down, then I moved closer and finished it off, off hand at 100 yards or so.
That was my 49th or 50th elk, I have lost track in old age and repeated concussions from fights with street people and green colts.
Elk hunting is like that, you take the shot of opprotunity as fast as you can when you see it, although the folks who make the hunting shows would have you believe that you take the perfect broadside shot when your guide demands you to shoot, elk hunting for the rest of us meat hunters doesn’t go down that way.
The average hunter kills an elk every 7 to 9 years if he is a hunting every season he can, he gets a glimpse of a red or yellow body traveling swiftly thru a veil of brush or limbs or galloping on a hillside hundreds of yards away most of the time, I engineered my life so that I lived inside an elk herd, I could shoot them and drag them home or load them into my 6 wheeled Polaris and bring them home and hang them on my front porch.
It took a dedication to what I wanted to do in life to be able to live like that.
My last post I said I shot a hundred pounds of lead thru a sharps barrel a year, that is not true in retrospect, it was far more than that. I shot every day, I reloaded at the minimum 8 hours per week, not counting casting. At 14 bullets to the pound lead goes fast.
For me it has always been about hunting and shooting.
Yes that Mdl 70 kills elk more efficienatly, but as my last season closed 20 minutes or so after it began, I longed for more hunting, more tracking and traipsing thru the snow and the forest up and down hills on oxygeon starved legs after my quarry, I longed for my sharps and cast bullets.
Unless you pay a guide to take you some place commercial, setting up and doing your own elk hunting takes a single minded focus to the sport, you need to be in superb shape physically to to do it, you need to be intimate with the hunting area, and you need to scout.
You need to know your clothing, your rifle and what that equipment will do for you when the chips are down. The average deer hunter is not even close to that commitment.
Yes it is a BB gun if you want to call it that, a bb gun that propells a 425 grain slug at 900 feet per second, and will blow a half inch hole thru a elk with devestating power if your close enough and your dedicated enough to get to that point in life to do that, to plan the trip. to take the effort to exercise and live you life towards that goal.
I am not talking about a multi thousand dollar hunt where some guide who runs a camp and has hired a cook for you, who points to the animal and hands you a rifle and demand you shoot now! I am talking about dedicated hunting by self made men who choose a different path than the corporate boardroom.
And for me that is what life is about, chasing these great beasts, sometimes shooting them two or three times to get them on the ground, and then recovering the meat and trophy for substenace and for memories while huddled around a wood stove long into the winter. Working your ass off to skin, quarter and pack it thru knee deep snow for miles, or if our lucky to a horse you have fed for years or 6 wheel polaris and then cut and wrap it yourself.
I have shot a lot of elk and I know only a handful of hunters who can match my record, there are more out there, we just have not crossed paths. I gave thanks to nature , the god I worship, everytime I shot one of the great steaming beasts and they lay at my feet, perhaps it was from living too long without civilization or my mothers indian blood, but I am humbled by the great steaming beasts, so I thanked nature for the opprotunity of the hunt, for the life blood of health running thru my viens nurtured by the meat that lay at my feet, and I thanked nature for feeding my family.
I practiced daily, I competed, I won several state championships, in combat shooting, practical rifle shooting and in the SASS black powder cartridge class.
And I lived the life, in a area that there were few people, it was a harsh life, and I pay for it at night with aches and pains, but I made house and barn and guest house out of concrete and wood I cut into lumber from trees I fell on my own land, because I could and because it is who I am, it is why I cast my own slugs, to chase these beasts.
I look at me using primitive weapons when I could use that Mdl 70 as fly fishing for marlin, it is the tchnique based on skill that allows me to do that.
For those of you who live or have lived in the cities and worked at the 9 to 5 job to feed your families and put your kids thru school, that is the life you choose, and it is a honorable life also, it is just that I choose to live my life another way, and I have no regrets for it.
And like you, I lived that way also at one time, it is just at one point I choose to live another way life, if I could turn back the clock I would do it all over again. What I can’t do is continue to do it forever, hard work and a harsh life takes a chunk out of you, and the harder you live the greater the chunk it takes. It is why I write this at night, in pain that robs me of sleep, in bed when I should be sleeping.
I have very few seasons left under my belt, soon I will be in the age group that lights the stump on fire and stares at the hillside thru age blurred eyes looking for tha one last kill, I used to see an old man who did that year after year, he had a fire in the middle of the road that I had to drive around when taking my kids to school once a week thru snow clad mountains, on forest service roads, the last year he was there, one morning when I got to the fire it was smoldering, and he was not there, beside the fire was a gut pile and bloody drag marks in the snow down the hillside, the old man had that one last hunt.
That spring as the snow melted, I found somethng by the charred fire remains in the road, it was a Gerber knife in a homemade sheath, I still have it and I still have that and all the other memories to keep me company as I walk slowly thru the snow, waiting to hear the elk feeding ahead of me on the trail I silently follow.
I guess you just have to be there, in mind and body and soul to understand.
Regards,
Roachcreek
WOW
Killing elk with a BB gun, 😯
seems kind of expensive, when a guy could buy a muzzleloader at a fraction of the cost and twice the muzzle energy.
but i guess it is all about the AIR . 😉
you don’t have the powder mess with airguns, the 58 ranger develops over 1000fpe , does your muzzle loader produce over 2000 fpe ?
😯 😯 😯 😯
WOW
Killing elk with a BB gun, 😯
seems kind of expensive, when a guy could buy a muzzleloader at a fraction of the cost and twice the muzzle energy.
but i guess it is all about the AIR . 😉
Jerry
I used to go thru a 100 lbs of 1-30 alloy per year with the big Sharps rilfes, I had a 1100 yard range at the time but now I still don’t have to drive further than 100 feet below the house to shoot.
I will buy the plinking bullets, and I am in the process of getting information on a 425 grain bullet from Accurate molds, it is a close copy and I believe a improvement of my hunting bullet I cast from a NEI mold, then I will buy my alloy from Buffalo arms, they are the closest and it is where I got my alloy and casting equipment before, I will try both pure lead and 1-30.
As far as how many shots, I just have always shot a lot. I have won the Oregon Practical rifle championship twice, you have to be pretty familiar with your rifle to do that, that means shots down range, a lot of them, under just about every concieveable situation
Thanks for the imput, but Dan at XP air guns uses the plain 45 acp bullets and 45 lc bullets with no trouble, he does not take the lube off them either.
With the price of alloy, it does not make sence to cast the 250 grain plinkers. But I would just as soon make my own elk bullets.
I figured it out the other day, I have sent 10 cast bullets thru elk, I cherish those kills far above the biggest bulls I have ever taken, because of the fact they were my own bullets, some cast with solar power, so don’t worry about the humane factor, it is killing and this ain’t my first rodeo.
Regards,
Roachcreek
No that’s not really what I said. You left some words off of that there quote. I said it failed to expand. Expansion is what hollowpoint hunting slugs are going for, right? When a HP slug does not open up, that is known as a failure (to function as intended) whether the game is killed or not. It did penetrate enough (and surprisingly straight considering the four ribs) to kill so it worked. I mean damn….it was a .45grain slug in the 400grain range; it damn well better kill it!
Like you said DanH any slug can kill whether it functions as designed or not. The shots on that hog, and fallow doe taken with that excessively deep cavitied HP slug proves it.
Sure the critters are dead. After all, they were shot with heavy lead .45 slugs! Did the slugs perform as intended? No way (though with a much shallower cavity, it just may have). I’ve seen roundball work the exact same on critters….they run a bit and die leaving no blood trail. I want more than just killing ability, I want it with a bloodtrail. I want consistent, profuse bleeding that produces an average 10-30 yard run (when they run) instead of the 50-100+ run (talking deer/coyotes here) that even the worst slug could achieve even when they fail.
What I want most is a that “red carpet” of a blood trail leading me to the game. Blood on the ground via the entry, and exit wounds at the ends of a long, consistent wound channel. Choose whatever you like, but that is my choice for truly big game.
The coastal range of Oregon (Rosie habitat), particularly the Siuslaw National Forest has extremely rugged terrain with cover that is un-believably thick. 50-100 yards difference in run , and a less than optimum bloodtrail can easily mean the difference between finding your Elk and getting it packed out that day/evening, or not finding it until the next day hoping the scavengers haven’t found it first.
Hit four Roosevelt Elk ribs in a row with your HP and you just might be screwed. You could practically fit two of those hogs inside a single Bull Roosevelt Elk’s body cavity.
i shoot your elk in the neck ! 😆 i blow big hole out the other side of the neck ! 😆
i give you real short blood trail ! 😆
now Bob claims he used to lose deer shooting regular none hollow points because the they did not leave enough blood trail when shooting deer , where the hollow point left a bigger hole out the back side /bigger blood trail his words not mine , i shoot’s um in the neck ! 😆
eagle eye sharp shooter needs no blood trail ! 😆
ya gotta have fun with this ! 😆 Butcher ! 😆
Butcher45 the blood lusting loving VAMPIRE ! 😈 HA ! HA ! no i know what you mean man , i seen that cat you killed , it looked really cool !
Washougal rain forest is where we go shooting , one of the wet-est spots in the world on the rain map , we have large herds of monster elk up here ,bear , deer, yotes , and the rest that crawls through the woods ,i got a spot i can see all these guys in one day sometimes ,
heck all 3 of us do not live that far apart we shoould do some shooting some time ,
i know this guy Butcher45 wants to shoot the ranger with the 36inch barrel ! 😆 😆 BOOM ! !
DH
No that’s not really what I said. You left some words off of that there quote. I said it failed to expand. Expansion is what hollowpoint hunting slugs are going for, right? When a HP slug does not open up, that is known as a failure (to function as intended) whether the game is killed or not. It did penetrate enough (and surprisingly straight considering the four ribs) to kill so it worked. I mean damn….it was a .45caliber slug in the 400grain range; it damn well better kill it!
Like you said DanH any slug can kill whether it functions as designed or not. The shots on that hog, and fallow doe taken with that excessively deep cavitied HP slug proves it.
Sure the critters are dead. After all, they were shot with heavy lead .45 slugs! Did the slugs perform as intended? No way (though with a much shallower cavity, it just may have). I’ve seen roundball work the exact same on critters….they run a bit and die leaving no blood trail. I want more than just killing ability, I want it with a bloodtrail. I want consistent, profuse bleeding that produces an average 10-30 yard run (when they run) instead of the 50-100+ run (talking deer/coyotes here) that even the worst slug could achieve even when they fail.
What I want most is a that “red carpet” of a blood trail leading me to the game. Blood on the ground via the entry, and exit wounds at the ends of a long, consistent wound channel. Choose whatever you like, but that is my choice for truly big game.
The coastal range of Oregon (Rosie habitat), particularly the Siuslaw National Forest has extremely rugged terrain with cover that is un-believably thick. 50-100 yards difference in run , and a less than optimum bloodtrail can easily mean the difference between finding your Elk and getting it packed out that day/evening, or not finding it until the next day hoping the scavengers haven’t found it first.
Hit four Roosevelt Elk ribs in a row with your HP and you just might be screwed. You could practically fit two of those hogs inside a single Bull Roosevelt Elk’s body cavity.
Dan, I never take a head or neck shot, nor do almost any experienced hunters I know, too easy to break a jaw and too easy to hit a windpipe, but then having only won a half dozen state championships and killed several hundred deer and 50 elk, I don’t have your extensive field experience.
With heavy bullets and in the field at varing ranges, it just exacerbates the issue, so solid body shots are the shot for getting meat on the ground.
Regards,
Roachcreek
i understand your dilemma roachcreek , if ya can’t make the tight shot ,and don’t know your range , go for what ya can hit , i hear ya bro
my last deer was shot through the neck at 125 yards , with a pre-64 Winchester 308 ,his head just wiped sideways , and he hit the ground , never had to look for a blood trail 😆 😆 😆
Roachcreek
That hollowpoint also failed to expand in that hog (likely due to excessive cavity depth more than anything else) and left ZERO bloodtrail, while a solid WFN probably would have exited the animal while leaving a superior wound channel. Which goes back to the reliability advantage the WFN has over HP’s.
I’ve personally seen a nearly identical hollowpoint design shot from a DAQ fail to expand, or even penetrate completely for two shots in a fallow doe shot broadside at close range….one of them “deformed” a bit at the nose, but expansion as intended didn’t happen.
Granted the HP’s have an impressive appearance, but remember the game won’t be able to see the slug and don’t care either way. If a 400+grain HP can’t penetrate a fallow doe broadside, I see no reason to go shooting an Elk with it.
My friend that shot the fallow doe with the HP’s also killed two whitetail does in Missouri using the 207grain Devastator HP (a truly superior HP design) at around 950fps. No exits wounds, but the slugs expanded to .75+caliber and did well. Thats on deer, though. Not Elk.
Only critter I feel at all comfortable taking a CNS shot on is motionless bobcat.
Oh yeah……you can still hunt deer in Oregon with a .22-250 hehehe.
you say the hollowpoint failed ?
yet it went through 4 ribs broke the neck killed the HOG ! and Bob ate it ! HA ! HA ! and that was at 700fps !
i think it worked just fine !
Bob did not have to look for that Hog , but hey use what ever ya like , like i said before all these 45 cal bullets 200g plus shot out of the ranger at close range will kill and elk with decent shot placement , it’s just flesh and bones ! they are not wearing bullet proof vest ! HA ! HA !
What, ANOTHER JH for sale? OK, OK, don’t go ballistic!
RC,
You might want to try the Raptor. At 220gr (or so) it will scream even at lower pressure/air useage. It can be sized to .452 or .4515 which while it looks like an insignificant delta, has proven to make a noticable difference for certain guns. I bring it up because your barrel dimensions seem to fit perfectly. The Raptor has a large meplat and so far, has shown excellent accuracy in good barrels with good shooters. The other thing to consider is that when the firing impulse drives the slug into the bore proper, the lead that exceeds the land diameter has to go somewhere. It might be that a small amount of room in the groove dimension allows that displacement without forcing too much change in the length of the slug driving bands.
The long lede is good for long bullets but for shorter rounds “can” introduce accuracy degradation. Only testing will tell for sure and I can safely say there is no simple rule of thumb unless you’re a 6mm benchrest guy who will only shoot one bullet and load. I have a number of guns with ledes cut and some fire some slugs shorter than the lede extremely precise while wanting other (mostly ogive nose) slugs seated further forward. I think PB shooters have known a long time that chamber design is critical to accuracy but airgunners have not considered it as much. My personal observations lead me to believe that the first inch of travel for an airgun slug may be MORE complicated and more important than for the run of the mill PB hunting gun.
BTW, I realize that you’re hunting Elk not looking for 1/4 MOA accuracy. That said, you will want good accuracy because you’re going to kill something humanely and any gun/slug inaccuracy on top of your own error (it’s not bench rest after all) will more than likely be cumulative vice lucky negative interference!
Also, are you really going to “plink” with this gun? I note with alternating envy and amusement the idea that having bought an expensive, very powerful and very loud gun… one needs to buy cheap “plinking rounds” 1000 at a time! Really? Awesome! For me, I can get off half a dozen rounds with the Yukon and I think I’ve abused the local population enough. If I want to go test my skills or a new slug or just shoot the crap out of reactive targets, I have to drive many miles to a range. I don’t see doing that and then spending my limited time shooting and learning ammo that I don’t intend to use in competition or for hunting. Now, if you shoot 1000 rounds a week with a big bore, OK… 🙄
I just paid for the gun, it ships out Friday. If you can avoid driving by the Wells Fargo Bank do so, the sucking from my account could cause a whirlpool and draw you in. 😆
The thing about a 45 bore, is that it does not need to expand, if you use a flat nose bullet, it will impart shock and still penetrate, after all that was what Elmer Keith was all about wasn’t it?
I spent an hour on the phone with Dan Mcvey just finshed up minutes ago, what a nice and knowledgable man, completly unassuming, but sure knows his stuff.
The barrel is an 8 grove, he says it doesn’t seem to matter which store bought 452 hard cast or soft bullet you use, and he does not remove the lube, he just shoots them.
My barrel is a 28 inch, he recommends the 400 to 430 grain range, and no need to cast a chamber plug, he says it will take an 1 3/8 inch bullet with no trouble, makes no difference if it is a LBT or what ever. He says I will be getting 900 FPS or better with the 28 with 400+ grains and 4500 PSI.
Dan H, I see Riverside has his Jack Haley on the AA Classifieds, now is your chance :lol:.
Regards,
Roachcreek
I always avoid the Wells Fargo in Eugene……seems they were getting robbed on a weekly basis several years back.
Nice to hear that the Ranger isn’t fussy with ammo…..Veral would still want a casting, or some idea of the chamber dimensions as he does with every gun just so he can wring every last bit of accuracy/performance out of the design.
Sounds like the 28inch barrel will deliver more performance than other bigbores sporting 36inch barrels. Awesome.
RS selling the Haley on AA? He didn’t give the TAG TEAM first dibs? 😛
Butcher,
I just paid for the gun, it ships out Friday. If you can avoid driving by the Wells Fargo Bank do so, the sucking from my account could cause a whirlpool and draw you in. 😆
The thing about a 45 bore, is that it does not need to expand, if you use a flat nose bullet, it will impart shock and still penetrate, after all that was what Elmer Keith was all about wasn’t it?
I spent an hour on the phone with Dan Mcvey just finshed up minutes ago, what a nice and knowledgable man, completly unassuming, but sure knows his stuff.
The barrel is an 8 grove, he says it doesn’t seem to matter which store bought 452 hard cast or soft bullet you use, and he does not remove the lube, he just shoots them.
My barrel is a 28 inch, he recommends the 400 to 430 grain range, and no need to cast a chamber plug, he says it will take an 1 3/8 inch bullet with no trouble, makes no difference if it is a LBT or what ever. He says I will be getting 900 FPS or better with the 28 with 400+ grains and 4500 PSI.
Dan H, I see Riverside has his Jack Haley on the AA Classifieds, now is your chance :lol:.
Regards,
Roachcreek
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That seems like a really good price , is it.???
How loud are these things guys , what powder gun do you think they are close to.