Bullet designs for 452 bores
Marvin,
So what do you think would happen by leaving the middle band out of the Accurate molds 458/452 425 B? Is bore friction on a big bore airgun that much of an issue?
BTW I keep looking for his lettering code ie., a, b, d, some are self explanatory but what is the B for?
Roachcreek
All Replies
Yes he emailed me too on that. My rifle ships out no later than Friday, I am stoked.
Dan, I never take a head or neck shot, nor do almost any experienced hunters I know, too easy to break a jaw and too easy to hit a windpipe, but then having only won a half dozen state championships and killed several hundred deer and 50 elk, I don’t have your extensive field experience.
With heavy bullets and in the field at varing ranges, it just exacerbates the issue, so solid body shots are the shot for getting meat on the ground.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Dan e-mailed me today . The Ranger barrel is .452 by .447 , 8 groove, 1 in 22 twist . Gargoyle same but 1in 20 . Enjoy your Rangers .Marvin
Another good read that tells us what it takes for cast bullets to work well in micro groove barrels . Hope you take the time to read this .Marvin
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/microgrove-barrels.htm
Thanks for the link on the cast bullets.
Nothing personal, unlike RS and his nonexperience with xp guns, I have experience with elk and big bore slugs going a lot faster than the Ranger puts them out. Fifty dead elk at my feet tell me that this thing will not shoot stem to stern on a elk with hollowpoints, and like I said, I have shot a few elk with lead bullets before.
The HP’s would be a great deer load tho.
I have put four 500 grain bullets into elk on 3/4 raking shots with 500 grain bullets at 25 yards, only one stayed in but they were doing 1100 FPS at the muzzle, if it had been a full raking shot they would not have exited, and they were solids, the military bullet, the HP’s at a lower velocity will not exit an elk stem to stern period.
That hog was not a stem to stern shot, it was a raking shot, entering just behind the ribs and stopped at the neck, it did not give good penetration, no thank you on elk for me, but you welcome to try.
The micro barrels on the marlins did not work well with cast bullets, but this is an air gun, so I think it will work well, the dynamics are just different with PB’s, I have no doubt they work with air guns.
Regards,
Roachcreek
i would only shoot a side shot myself when it comes to big game , or neck/ head shot , myself i think of wound channel with a slow moving airgun , a powder burner at high fps has shock value ,
we used to shoot deer in the neck down in California using a 22-250 they never ran just dropped dead instantly, shock value was great on those hot loads even though it was a little bullet , back then you could use that gun , now you can’t . i come from a family of deer killers from the beginning stages of this country , to be honest with you even the lighter cast bullets will kill and elk with a good placed shot ,
myself i would shoot them in the neck ! HA ! HA ! cause i am a good shot shooting 1000 rounds a week , you don’t mess the meat up that way ! thats how my dad taught me to shoot them , back in the 70’s.
Dan,
Thanks for the link on the cast bullets.
Nothing personal, unlike RS and his nonexperience with xp guns, I have experience with elk and big bore slugs going a lot faster than the Ranger puts them out. Fifty dead elk at my feet tell me that this thing will not shoot stem to stern on a elk with hollowpoints, and like I said, I have shot a few elk with lead bullets before.
The HP’s would be a great deer load tho.
I have put four 500 grain bullets into elk on 3/4 raking shots with 500 grain bullets at 25 yards, only one stayed in but they were doing 1100 FPS at the muzzle, if it had been a full raking shot they would not have exited, and they were solids, the military bullet, the HP’s at a lower velocity will not exit an elk stem to stern period.
That hog was not a stem to stern shot, it was a raking shot, entering just behind the ribs and stopped at the neck, it did not give good penetration, no thank you on elk for me, but you welcome to try.
The micro barrels on the marlins did not work well with cast bullets, but this is an air gun, so I think it will work well, the dynamics are just different with PB’s, I have no doubt they work with air guns.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Not saying the HP won’t kill a Roosevelt Elk. I bet they could do a spectacular job if all the stars were aligned just so. I do know a guy that killed a 1100lb cow buffalo with a .44Magnum shooting a 250?grainer .44MagnumDevastator round at 1200fps . He said the perfect opportunity presented itself and it’s all he had with him, and that although it worked really well for him he didn’t recommend the HP for anything larger than whitetail deer.
What I am saying is that I feel the WFN-type slug is the safest bet on the largest of game especially with less than ideal shot angles and such. A large flat nose penetrates straight while producing a consistent wound channel, and does so RELIABLY.
There is a reason the #1 most often selected, and loaded design for cast boolit big game handgun hunting with identical/near identical ballistics as the .45Ranger (which is closer to .duplicating 45Colt+P, than it is standard .45Colt) is the large meplat flat nosed solid WFN/LFN/SWC. They just plain work….the same way all the time.
Hollowpoints work great when they work great. HP’s suck when they don’t open up, or when it comes to a large animal on the run with no exit wound RELIABLY putting blood on the ground for tracking. I have heard some horrendous Roosevelt Elk tracking stories (hit “ok” with archery, and centerfires)…….the amount of centerfire magnum lead they can take and still get away running on one lung is pretty amazing.
I like the looks of that 360grain WFN myself. That’s a lot of lead, with some respectable sectional density behind it. If a 260grainKeith.452@900fps will go thru a large mule deer stem to stern at 100 yards distance, I have to wonder…….what is a 360grain.452WFN@900fps going to be capable of penetrating at 50-75yards?
DanH, cast hollowpoints in an airgun are best suited for smaller stuff under, say, 150lbs using medium, to lighter weights. Definitely no hollowpoints for Elk……you need a long, consistent, penetrating wound channel with the greatest total volume possible when it comes to 800-1000lb game and the Keith/LFN/WFN slugs do that with the most consistency. I want the game to deform not the slug, and a bleeding exit hole is good to have for tracking .
Veral told me that SamYang909 riflling is much shallower than MicroGroove rifling. Can’t recall what else he said about Marlin Micro Groove…..
i think in the ranger the 540 mrhollow point bullet will work killer !
this is no low powered Korean gun !
the cast bullets i suggested were for plinking not hunting .
even though you could , i would prefer hollowpoint’s for massive wound channel !
talking to Dan , and Bob these larger 400’s- 540’s have in-fact killed big game , his 380 hollowpoint in a much lower 700’s fps powered Gargoyle went through a hog length wise breaking 4 ribs in half then breaking the neck ,
the reason Bob started making the hollowpoints was to create a larger wound channel for more bleeding to track the game , and in the field these have bleed the game out a lot better for tracking / killing than none hollowpoint bullets in high powered airguns .
now with 900-1000 fps over 900 fpe in the 36inch barrel with the new valve spring that has more fps/fpe- ranger shooting on high power 4500 psi the 540 will kill your elk ! DEAD ! no problem-o – ! shooting through the side , wound channel will be HUGE !
the 28 inch barrel will be about 100 fps slower than the 36inch barrel with the same g bullet , so you could go down in grain to get the speed up for longer shots with the 28 inch barrel .
That 46-425-B has a .3 meplat which is pretty decent. If the Ranger can still achieve complete penetration with a WFN (.36+meplat) like I think it can at 650+fpe, the larger meplat has got to be superior. BHD said the .45 WFN’s out-penetrate all of his other slug designs in his specialty high-tech test medium (supposed to be better than ballistic gelatin).
I like the looks of that 360grain WFN myself. That’s a lot of lead, with some respectable sectional density behind it. If a 260grainKeith.452@900fps will go thru a large mule deer stem to stern at 100 yards distance, I have to wonder…….what is a 360grain.452WFN@900fps going to be capable of penetrating at 50-75yards? Of course if the heavier WFN is relatively close in velocity it would be good to go with it. With the .45Ranger’s reported chrony readings, I have noticed that substantially heavier slugs tend to loose less velocity than I expected, making them much more practical to use.
DanH, cast hollowpoints in an airgun are best suited for smaller stuff under, say, 150lbs using medium, to lighter weights. Definitely no hollowpoints for Elk (my opinion)……you need a long, consistent, penetrating wound channel with the greatest total volume possible when it comes to 800-1000lb game and the Keith/LFN/WFN slugs do that with the most consistency. I want the game to deform not the slug, and a bleeding exit hole is good to have for tracking .
Veral told me that SamYang909 riflling is much shallower than MicroGroove rifling. Can’t recall what else he said about Marlin Micro Groove, and the trick to getting those barrels to shoot cast accurately…..
My Gargoyle is as accurate as it gets with cast bullets . And I believe they both have the same barrel . You are probable right about the groove . I thought as you . Then I did a search on micro groove and cast bullets and found a lot of info . But my rifle made a believer out of me . I shoot 142 grain conicals 12-22 bhn 3100 psi at 1000 plus fps . with my low pressure valve . Enjoy your Rangers .Marvin
Marvin,
Dan told me it was .0025 last week when I asked him about the hard cast reloading bullets.
Micro groove? I hope better than the Marlin Micro Groove, they were a bitch to get to shoot cast bullets.
Regards,
Roachcreek
He says they are .452 and the groves are .0025 so that would be .4495? Dan Mcvey claims he usually just shoots hard cast 452 pistol bullets that are bought bulk cast. That would be a nice cheap alternative.
On that site you listed for the bullets, it looks like one or more of those LBT bullets have just two driving bands and a very wide groove in between. The 405 looks interesting, did you look at that mould on the site marvin listed 46-425-B That would be a good one I think.
I had great luck with big flat nosed 458 bullets on elk in the 420 grain range.
Perhaps I should order some creosote and make a chamber cast when the rifle gets here.
Regards,
Roachcreek
That is whats cool about the ranger , it makes so much power all you need to do for target shooting is order regular reloading cast bullets 200-250 grain ,
midstates cast bullets $54-$59 shipped to your house 452 – 1000 bullets,
230g round nose would work great for plinking .here is the link , low power 4000 psi should go 1100 fps mid power over 1200 fps according to Dan
http://www.carrollsweb.com/gunshop/html/midstates_cast_bullets.html
then get some mrhollowpoint 540 grain hollow point bullets for hunting the elk , Dan says these 540 ‘s make the most power fps/fpe , they tried over 600’s but they did not do as well in testing .
To me in the high power BB no the friction is not that big of a issue with in reason . I mention one reason for leaving it in . But both of you need to take the time to read the article on molds in ingot to target . Every one has a opinion and I do not want to get into a battle over this . And I do not like to spend some one else’s money . Tom at accurate molds is very knowledgeable . I was his first AR customer . But once I told him about our modest pressures compared to P.B but the energy we were at he new what to do . But bottom line the customer rights the order . IMO that long and heavy of a bullet needs the center band . I would narrow it down just for peace of mind .
The barrels are 1 in 20 micro groove . With a .452 groove and I can not remember the land . But if memory is correct the goove is about .0015. Marvin
Butcher,
He says they are .452 and the groves are .0025 so that would be .4495? Dan Mcvey claims he usually just shoots hard cast 452 pistol bullets that are bought bulk cast. That would be a nice cheap alternative.
On that site you listed for the bullets, it looks like one or more of those LBT bullets have just two driving bands and a very wide groove in between. The 405 looks interesting, did you look at that mould on the site marvin listed 46-425-B That would be a good one I think.
I had great luck with big flat nosed 458 bullets on elk in the 420 grain range.
Perhaps I should order some creosote and make a chamber cast when the rifle gets here.
Regards,
Roachcreek
What is the land/groove profile of a .45 Ranger barrel?
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Roachcreek
That hollowpoint also failed to expand in that hog (likely due to excessive cavity depth more than anything else) and left ZERO bloodtrail, while a solid WFN probably would have exited the animal while leaving a superior wound channel. Which goes back to the reliability advantage the WFN has over HP’s.
I’ve personally seen a nearly identical hollowpoint design shot from a DAQ fail to expand, or even penetrate completely for two shots in a fallow doe shot broadside at close range….one of them “deformed” a bit at the nose, but expansion as intended didn’t happen.
Granted the HP’s have an impressive appearance, but remember the game won’t be able to see the slug and don’t care either way. If a 400+grain HP can’t penetrate a fallow doe broadside, I see no reason to go shooting an Elk with it.
My friend that shot the fallow doe with the HP’s also killed two whitetail does in Missouri using the 207grain Devastator HP (a truly superior HP design) at around 950fps. No exits wounds, but the slugs expanded to .75+caliber and did well. Thats on deer, though. Not Elk.
Only critter I feel at all comfortable taking a CNS shot on is motionless bobcat.
Oh yeah……you can still hunt deer in Oregon with a .22-250 hehehe.