Bullets, bigbore, medbore, smallbore anyone?
Ok, obviously I am a newb here.
But I have been pouring over many of the various posts and I am absolutely fascinated with the great work of many talented enthusiasts that so generously share their talented experience and are so generous in documenting and discussing what I see as the cutting edge of recreational shooting sports of the future. Gentlemen, I want what you got and do what you do. I want to be a part of… I cant fake or pretend to having anything great or profound to contribute but I would like to start some discussion and postulate the following for your expert discussion and thoughts.
Bullets, slugs, casting lead, or boolits ive seen it referred. Big bore has been done in all forms from slug to roundball and even diablo conventional pellets. Cedrics videos which I love has helpped popularize long range, with Doug furthering the great works of those highly esteemed works of the previous masters like jack haley or even dennis quackenbush!
The casual observation has been the progression from .308 down to now is the .257 (“medbore”).
It seems that speed does play a large role as so eloquently someone else posted. Traditionally a major limit has been the physics of approaching mach speed and overcoming the poor ballistic coefficient of diablo pellets . Before the popularity of the .17 hmr, I had went through the trouble handloading the centrfire .17 rem cartridge for the Contender Pistol . Definately a trial in dexterity and vision seating that little pill on a necked down .223 case. I can imagine the pain casting tgesr things but wouldnt a .17 bullet of around 40 to 50 grns have a decent b.c. and good chance at being the hyper velocity rnd to consistiently achieve accuracy at mach speed?
All Replies
Howdy Old Goat! Manuela and I were just talking about your project last night and wondering how it was comeing along.
Doug, the liner is normally used to repair older shot out barrels. Especially in old black powder guns where the corrosive properties of black powder have really taken its toll.
Since this is a already existing industry, and the liners are a great thickness for our AG’s, It is kinda made to order for us! Lots for cal’s and twist rates already available, and far cheaper than custom made barrels for our experimenting pleasure. 😆
The real up side for us is that the BC is so much higher than what it is for pellets, that we have a MUCH better trajectory, even if we don’t push the bullets at a much higher speed.
I have a small out cropping of rock that I like to shoot at that are across a bit of pasture and across a cattle pond. Apx. 175 yards. If sighted in at 50 yards, a .25 pellet will require the scope knob be turned one full turn from “0” to “0” and futher to 12 to get the job done. With the 60 grain NOE traveling at the same speed, the elevation knob needs to be turned to 12 to 13. This a HUGE difference. And as an added bonus, the .257 has much more FPE at 200 yards than the .25 JSB has at the muzzle. A real Win-Win in my mind. And this doesn’t even take into account the so much better wind drift characteristics. Here in Windy Texas, this may very well be nearly as important as the other attributes. 😀
And about the over 25 yard thing that Old Goat spoke about. 🙄 😀 Best Group at 80 yards so far was a three shot group in 5-10 mph wind. It was .090″ ctc Just barely larger than a single hole. 😉 :8:
knife
Knife
I keep hearing alot about the lyman bullets. I was thinking a little heavier bullet, but then again who am I to reinvent the wheel. I wasnt particularly looking forward to casting my own bullets and was hopeful that I may find a compomise in something that I may purchase. I believe that there certainly is a tradeoff between fabricating your own bullet and fine tuning as apposed to a store bought one size fits all. However there is something said about convience too.shouldnt I be able to further take a lot of bulk purchased slugs and run them through a sizing die anyways?
As for bullets what weights do you find are commonly being used? What is your reasoning for using that modified lyman and are you selecting a hollowpoint for hunting or is it just to further trim and lean out that lyman that is in the process of your guys continued development?
As for me and my purposes, first I suppose that like most guys starting out with PCP type of air rifles, shot count isnt intially a primary concern. I think for many getting started out, its more about the shear power above all. I am not as so concerned about max power,,, Well,,, maybe yes, velocity is nice and I appreciate having velocity for flatter trajectory , however trajectory is a major reality with shooting any distance with air rifles especially. Balance balance balance Mr.Mioggi!
My main interest is to shoot consistiently at a minimum of 100 yrds and beyond informally at paper off the bench for fun. I want to get firearm performance out of my air rifle.
My choice for the condor was based on the fact that this is the platform that I have seen others using, it is inexpensive, the basic mechanics are pretty simple and it’s modular design lends itself well to tinkering.
So if I may ask what are thr pros and cons of todays avail bullet choices for 257? Who is into shooting distance beyond 100+ yards and what do they subscribe to as far bullets?
Man I appreciate all the activity that this thread has generated and its cool to have the opprotunity to meet you all…. so far I havent been flamed or put down for such a newb…. thanks for welcoming me… you guys are some of the most hospitable and friendly group of folks . It kinda shows that greatness tend to attract greatness ….. I am far from great but I am willing to work at bettering myself and you guys are fine bunch of peers to aspire towards.
So based on benchrest for fun purpose what are some of the opinions for bsrrel bulket choices in .257? I was almost going to throw another cal. out there too…. but I gotta narrow down the many variables and stay focused on a forward path. One other really dumb question but I am not familiar with the barrel liner concept. This is an insert or sleave that is pressed or fittted into an exsisting barrel or some sort of tubing that is bushed and shrouded? I know that it is a ignorant question but I am not ever used or am I familiar with the TJ liner or similar products.
All sounds good but you are trying to shoot a slug that is twice as heavy as what you were shooting.
I don’t think there is that much in them. If it does work shot count will be low just like condor because it takes that much air to more heavier slugs.
Pellets have very low drag in a barrel compared to slugs also.
Was just thinking about the .25 cricket with imppu’s regulated air-space increaser with a .257 barrel and cast slugs around 50 grains.
Would the .257 diameter slugs be a problem in the .25 magazine? There is always a custom single loading tray to the rescue.
Dougroundup, Ridetoeat and I are working on shooting our cast .257” bullets out of our formerly 25 cal R3 Matadors. We will use the Lyman 257400 and NOE molds, cut them down to around 55 grain and then have them made into hollow points by:
http://www.hollowpointmold.com/
I have already cut my Lyman and NOE molds down and they cast bullets that weigh 54 grain for the NOE and 55 grain for the Lyman. I’m hoping to get the HP bullets to weigh in the 45-50 grain range and see how they shoot in my Hart .257” 1 in 14” twist barrels. I need to order another TJs .257” 1 in 14” twist barrel also.
Knifemaker has had very good results with the cut down Lyman and NOE cast bullets in a TJs barrel but: he hasn’t had them made into a HP, he is using a Condor that shoots them at around 1000 fps and he REALLY sucks at shooting at any thing over 25 yards! 😯
Mike is only getting around 8 useful shots before he needs a refill. The Condors waste a lot of air for each shot.
I’m thinking that I can get at least 20-22 regulated shots at 885 fps with a 45 grain HP .257” cast slug with my R3 long Matador.
Hey Knife: it’s your turn! 😆
Thanks man! You are greatness and I have already have got a much better idea of some of the various varables that come into play with such undertakings. I am going to continue with a new posting as I start to further prepare to build my own 257. For now there is already alot that has been published of others who have proceeded with their own 257 projects and I will familiarize myself more with what is involved now that I got somwhat of a grasp of the very basic of basics involved and can ask more educated and specific questions. My next step is likely to be a .257 bullet barrel and will look towards a 1-10 twist . I will further study so I may make a informed purchase. Cool cool cool I am on my way to doing this !
Doug,
A standard LW or BSA or whomever 177 pellet barrel probably has a twist rate of 1-16 at is fastest and maybe 1-18 or so. Regardless, I can for sure tell you that those twist rates are much too slow for what you want in a 177 cast bullet gun. MUCH TOO SLOW. Not that it CAN’T be done but seriously, I would give up on thinking 177 cal heavy slug air guns for right now. No one seems the slightest interested in spending a grip of money on a PROJECT that might not work out anyways especially if they are loosing and will see NO GAINS.
So yeah, in this case, its sorta is re-inventing the wheel. You stand MORE of a chance on finding a 40-55 gr 22 sleek cast bullet than you do a 172 or 177 caliber 40 gr sleek cast bullet. They just ARE NOT made and would require a lot of money and research to even begin to get results.
Now, I really have no idea on what would happen with your theory on cutting the crown and choke off a 177 barrel and stuffing lead wire into the breech and shooting it. Im sure the results WILL NOT be favorable.
A machinist could actually make a bullet CHERRY on a lathe. And then start making his own molds using that cherry. There are videos of it on youtube. But half the problem with airguns/airgunist is that a lot of airgun/gun NOOB machinist get into this and they don’t understand guns, ballistics, triggers, barrels, twist rates, valving, inertial, HPA/VALVE Balance, airtube fill pressures and so on. They just see that one can make 2000 dollars for a custom gun. So its tough for the guy with a lot of ideas and NO machining skills to get ahead but its easy for the novice machinist to copy something that’s already been done and make money on it.
CHOKE VS NON-CHOKED barrels: Here it is in short. For a pellet barrel to shoot cast slugs with any type of accuracy, the choke needs to be removed. This is usually about the last 2 inches of the barrels MUZZLE. What a choke does is pretty much make a pellet into somewhat of a slug as it exits the barrel as well as help seal the passing air and blah, blah, blah, blah. This has the reverse effect when applied to a long solid bullet. The other thing is twist rate. Remember, pellets are STUBBY in comparison to bullets which are LONG. So a pellet doesn’t require fast twist rates like a bullet does. Friction is also much less compared to bullets.
257 twist rates: In short, with the 257 in air gun form, available bullet weights cast or pre cast are roughly 65-120 grains. The 1-14 twist like on my TD257 work best with about 60-85 gr bullets and will shoot some 100+ gr bullets well. But not all. So then the 1-10 (faster twist than 14) will perform best with the 80-120+ gr bullets. Now, in the Powder Burner world the same will apply. THE HEAVIER A BULLET PER CALIBER THE FAST THE TWIST REQUIRED TO STABILIZE THAT BULLET.
I can answer a lot of questions but I admit, response time will be slow due to my daily normal life of working and family. I’ve been reading gun magazine front to back since I was a kid and I now browse and peruse the internet for things that I don’t know. And the internet is free as opposed to buying books and cluttering up your house. Ask question, Read books, study the internet and repeat all steps to learn all you can about ballistics. Some people on the NET just have a way of explaining things. Many Youtube videos are pretty good when it comes to explaining ballistics and trajectories…etc….etc….etc….etc.
So whichever platform one decides upon for a .257 , the barrel should be a minimum 1in 10 twist for up to 100 -110 gr bullet? How do you or where does one find the formula to find what twist rate is required for which bore and weight? Or is this trusted hard earned experience? Forgive me if this addressed elswhere! I have read the importance slugging your bore and mic’ing the bullet and to get rid of any choked down section of barrel as the choke just robs performance with additional unneeded friction for a proper diameter bullet. What about the breech end? What is exactly cut or done to it. Is it simply just reamed a bit to allow the bullet some “chamber” space or freebore before contacting the lands of the rifling. I know that bullet seating depth is on of the greater variables to affect accuracy when handloading . Is this similiar in what has to be done to the breech end of the barrall when firing bullets in an airgun? Are the RL .257 drop in condor barrels any decent and what would they entail to properly fire a bullet? What does it entail to mod any air rifle barrel to fire slugs ? Remove choked section recrown and chamber breach?
Should I start a new thread elswhere such as the machine and mod section?
To stay on topic what if I simply cut off the end of my LW .177 barrel, recrowned and opened up the breech end to facilitate loading 40 gr sliced up sections of 4.5 mm lead rod or drawn wire? Probably its doubtful that the stock pelletgun twist rate would optimally stabilize a heavier solid leaded projectile?
Sorry guys I am not trying to reinvent the wheel…. just very inquizzative. Is there any good books on practical ballistic theory that arent too overly crazy with the advanced physics or extreme quantum physics …. ya know kinda like maybe an intermediate ballistics for dummies crash course… Maybe someone wants to come over and get my lathe up and running for me too….. oh and the ol lady needs someone to pick up her groceries on the way over too! :rofl:
Well Doug, its hard to point ya in the direction that “I THINK” you might want to go cause i simply don’t really know what your in to.
But, you did mention long and sleek 17 bullets. So the best that i can come up with on the fly is maybe a 257 caliber with a 1-10 TWIST barrel so you can then shoot 100-120 gr SLEEK 257 cal bullets that have decently high BC numbers. Good enough to get you out to a buncha hundreds of yards….lol!
You also mentioned casting vs swaging. Well, i haven’t seen with my own eyes and ears anyone SUCCESSFULLY (accuracy) doing it. Casting is also MUCH cheaper to do. You can also buy off the shelf bullets in 257. You can start casting for under a hundred bucks
Hey thanks guys for answering my questions and particpating in this conversation.
Reading this thread I have noticed that much of pondering, ideas and questions do really indicate my inexperience and novice knowledge of the pneumatic air rifle in general. So I am very appreciative of everones paitence.
As Cedric had said , I think that theory aside its really up to someone to actually experiment and give an idea a try. The investment someone is willing to place in the idea is going to be proportionate to how strong they are in their belief of the concept…m Of course a grasp of that theory and an experienced understanding of whats goin on and where you are going is greatly going to increase your goals most efficient and effectively. If there is any chance at reaping a tangible return or advantage to investment in experimentation, likely somebody would be going there. Seems technology in the modern world is such that if we can throw enough money at something , it can generally be made possible. We are also at a point in this world that we better manage and realize the limits of our resources.
Right now it appears that the “medium” bore air rifle is where it is at… at least as far as working with a true bullet for projectiles.
I have noticed that there was a brief moment of popularity with the .20 caliber guns being introduced by a growing number of manufacturers. I assume that likewise the ammo was being produced by various manufacturers? Of course the only .20 cal. type of any kind of round that I have ever been familiar was that Sheridan pellet for the BlueStreak . It was a rather proprietary design that seemed to be just a hollow cylndrical “barrel” shaped thing with a solid nose. It did not have the familiar shuttlecock shaped skirt of a typical diablo pellet. By todays standards I am not so sure…. but as a kid I remember those things were deadly accurate to the bird population as well as any other quarry that was unfortunate to cross a youth’s afternoon summer safari arond the nieghbor hood. I remember pumping my best friends sheridan 80 times and taking aim at a duck in a pond. The pond was located in an empty field on the next block over from my friends house. We were sitting on the upper floor of his multi level parents house , outside on the deck. I was resting the the Sheridan on the railing and raisef the barrel a decent six to nine inches of elevation over the ducks head and above the lake. Just like in a Tofouzovideo, there was this knoslight seemingly long moment of anticipation as we expected to observe the pellet splash or skip upon the water near the duck….. instead this mallards neck suddenly goes limp and its head just dropped over and under into the water, submerged. My friends dad normally wouldnt like us shooting birds and such. He became aware because of all the excitement and decided to check in on us and was astonished and in such disbelief. He tells us in a sacarstic way “good one, now how ya guys going to retrieve it?” It didnt take us too long to hike over to the field and cast a fishing lure a dozen or so times to snag the duck and drag to the shore. :fishing:
Clean shot right into one ear and out the other side. His dad made us clean and eat that duck. With my friends mom doing must of the work plucking feathers. Amazingly lucky first shot at what seemed like incredible 100+|yard distance…. or maybe just used to always taking sighter shots from that deck all summer long watching the reactive rings of waves on the surface of the water. All summer long my friend, his brothers , dad and myself would spend the early daylight evenings on that deck with the .20 trying to take another duck once they settled on the water. I think the dad even put a decoy out there once. But nobody repeated it. I couldnt even get my .177 daisy pump to maks a splash.
I still think that to craft a smallbore bullet it might be worth trying to extrude or swage a bullet rather than casting . Just one more project to experiment and invest in I suppose.
And I have still yet to build/assemble a gun yet. Kinda unsure where and how to start. But surely will out of necessity be more of a DIY with what I can afford as I go along…. so far got a latest generation frame with new revised trigger and safety, std valve spinlok tank combo and a spare Co2 valve and adapter body. This is my current stuff to build upon … suggestions comments? Next step or purchase?
As to the exotic gasses, Helium works very well. But leaks like a sive and the price has gone thru the roof!
Sadly, semi combustion would make it legally a firearm. We don’t want those headaches. The longer we can fly under the radar, the better! 😉
Knife
Doug,
I can talk this stuff all night long.
Actually 4500 psi is already being done with the Hunter Extremes and the XP airguns. Well, IT’S BEEN DONE for years now.
Here are some CURRENT problems that I see with that high of a fill pressure (6000 psi). 1, is that all internal parts will have to be made pretty strong. Especially the valve stem. 2, is the ADDED wear on many parts including the hammer and valve stem. The more internal tube pressure the stronger parts have to be cause the harder the hammer has to slap the valve stem to open it. PLUS, it gets SLAMMED shut much harder too. 3, is finding a source to fill those guns that high. Something besides the BOOSTER pump which is an awesome tool. Of course airtubes will have to have thicker walls probably. But, it can be done for sure. Todays metals are hella strong and our fill pressures are DANGEROUSLY strong but nothing like the pressures a 60000 psi PB cartridge can make.
To be honest with ya though, a 4500 psi fill in the right caliber diameter and valving can make some serious speed and power. Let alone 6000. Hell, at only 3200 psi, my TD257 pushes a 70+gr/.129 bc bullet at over 1010 fps on its Med/High setting so imagine what a 4500 psi fill could do……lol! HOLD ON BABY, THIS NEXT SHOT IS GONNA HAVE A CRACK TO IT :rofl:
Hey guys, thanks so very much for reading and contributing to one of my first orignal posts.
Hey mom! Look at me, I am becoming a part of…. the other kids let me step onto the playground!
So it sounds as if something that I have pondered does make some sort of sense in the fact that if it was reasonably technically possible, it would be desirable to have a heavy enough .17 slug besides a common diablo pellet for a projectile.
TofFu, dude you not only make some awesome videos , you are very clear and concise with your explainations and general knowledge of theory. I am grateful for your participation and very nonpretensious mannerism. Everyone here on this Forum have so much experience and expertise. Sharing the knowledge, you guys are all so approachable. I have been meeting some real stand up guys. This is a gentlemans hobby.
Ok I will keep my awe in check…. I dont wanna leave an impression that I in anyway subscribe to any type of that mancrush business..
Some excellent technical points that all seem to have merit. After a short bout with handloading .17rem and trying to work with such a little pill, I just dont see it being hand casted by anyone but the most very extreme of obsessive compulsive. Trying to maintain uniformity would be another mentioned obstacle. However, after thinking about it further. I kinda started thinking about how much casting lead really does kinda suck and as a plumber I am glad that I never had to deal with leadoakem belled cast fittings. The solution would be to draw out lead rod and swage our .17 fodder and then strike and size it through a couple of dies. Hemostats might come in handy to handle your creations. The other hurdle would be that extreme amount of spin that woukd need to be imparted upon such typically small B.C.? As for pressures,,,, it seems current trends seem to indicate that even though manufacturers would never wish to put themselves in liable situations, more and more of the serious enthusiasts continue to push the upper limits of HPA. Increasing working pressures are obtained as more and more compressors are available to individuals for personal use and misuse too. Seems like 2800psi was the common before it was pushed to 3000. Now what are many guys doing? Kinda bumping it up to 3700 now? . Now that must really be an adrenaline rush in a sorta roulette type of way? Wont be long way to4500? I predict. Next stop along the guage, do we hear 6000? Has anyone documented 6000 shooting slugs? I guess that the whole issue with still not sustaining supersonic flight for a long enough of a duration to go the distance is big bummer that linits the usefulness of going there. What about propelling with exotic gasses? Or even some sorta semi combustionable? Or externally excited energy source to excite or move gas molecules in a really fast way that doesnt make for a spontaneous reaction. Such as the pressure induced by steam?
Ok I might be getting a bit too far out there. The state of technology these days is really truly lumited by the shear amounts of expense that can be put behind an ideal.
Similarly , despite my fascination with the forefront of what you guys are doing here… my insecurity and self doubt kinda grounds me and is trying to sabotage me before I get started . I find myself questioning myself and my capability. Certainly there is a finacial obligation that must be made as a cost of addmission but also I question if I can afford the dedication and obligate the time to invest into this advocation. If I continue to hag out at the barber shop I amcgoing to get a haircut…. I think its prolly too late anyways because your disease of addiction to this is infectious. I got my condor frame already and just gotta learn how to get my lathe wired up and how to gain the skils to put it to proper use. I dont suppose those skills exactly come overnight. But doesnt sound as if Dougs to do list is getting any shorter either nor is getting faster from what we just heard :rofl: Oh yeah this new Condor came with a dreaded .177 barrel too.
Kinda off topic but whatta bout some of the offering being sold commercially for .257 such as the”drop in” .257 barrel offered by RL and their flavor of extreme valve? Can it stack up anywhere near with what Doug has created?
Wouldnt be cool if doug gave me a crash lesson on how to use my tooling and I could help him with production….. Doh!!! I am just jesting and joking around . It would be cool if I was really such a quick study and had the ability to fully commit to such project!
Gotta frame so I guess ya guys are kinda stuck with my noob and inexperienced wannabe ass for the moment. Thanks for the identifying scarlet letter that puts me out on front street too! 😳
A 17 at that weight would in theory be very awesome and have a pretty high BC. And at this stage, THEORY is the problem. It would be soooooo nice if someone would throw together a 177 cal, high power airgun along with some SLEEK bullet molds in 177 and make them in a BOATTAIL design to test out for us…. Spare no expense.
Part of the problem with a bullet that heavy in 177 also would be having a barrel with a twist rate of 1-4 through 1-6 made……lol. Ok, 1-4, 1-6 twist rate was just a guess but im sure i’m not too far off…..lol.
Sound technical points ‘Tof’, a .17 Spitzer boat-tail hollow-point would be a treat to push to the limits, especially if it is a long slug. (The Swedish 6.5X55…a .25 PB with a looong bullet, has an excellent, near perfect BC, and was even used to drop elephants with head shots!)
With my AR-15, I read that any bullet in the sub 50gr weight range, requires a much slower rifling twist, as the faster barrel twist rates of 1:7 or higher, generates such tremendous centrifugal spin that the copper cladding on the lead actually is ripped off, and the slug disintegrates in flight.
A “Smooth Twist” barrel, might be able to have those last few twisted barrel inches rifled to the slower twist by a qualified machinist, as it doesn’t really have a rifling cut into the barrel end to begin with. Just a thought…
There has simply been SO much advancement in pcp’s, compared to just a few years ago, that a body doesn’t know where to start. That Evanix Tactical is certainly pretty, in an ugly functional sort of way. I’d love to stick a modified long .17 barrel on that bad boy, and see what happens if the slug weight were to get up to 40 to 50gr in a Spitzer, boat-tail configuration. I’m starting to sweat just thinking about it.
Hoot:
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
If u want bigbore bullets check out my site. I’ve got the 257’s u want. And the guys on here will vouch for the accuracy and price. I size to your bore. Check it out here.
http://www.accuratebigboreairgunammo.webs.com.