Custom EdGun Scope Rail
Well I tried to find someone who would make me a replacement scope rail for my R3 Matador but had no luck.
After some careful measurements and calculations I have found the following.
The official drop is 30MOA or 0.5 degrees. This leaves me at full scope knob down 2 mil dots high at 30 yards. As most of you know I am shooting a 177 caliber standard and intend on using it for field target.
The dovetail is a tight 11mm or 0.375″. It is actually 10.53mm across the top of the male dovetail at the receiver.
So my plan is to use one of these:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/829948/ergo-gunsmith-picatinny-style-rail-scope-base-blank-12-length-400-height-aluminum-black
And cut a dovetail on the bottom similar to the EdGun OEM rail. In order to get 15MOA I need to shim one end of the rail exactly 1/16″ over it’s 12″ of length when I cut the dovetail sections. I used cad to determine all this information instead of maths (much more easier). 😆
To cut the dovetail I will use this:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Dovetail-Cutter-3-8-x-60-/H2955
Apart from having a longer rail I will pretty much copy the existing cut outs as they are on the original rail. This will make the clamping controls squeeze the center together and I won’t have to make other parts for clamping.
I was going to make the whole rail until I found the blank rail set up.
I ordered two just in case I mess up the first one… 
Hopefully this is the final part of getting the Matador all in for the field target championship run next year!!! :8:
All Replies
The thing that sets the S&B scopes apart from the rest is the 1st plane reticle (I think it’s the 1st) so the mil-dots are constant at any zoom level. Absolute thing of beauty! 😮
There were a bunch of us down at LD’s for the Temeclua challenge earlier in the year and someone I have shot a bunch of matches with was using a S&B to estimate ranges from 600-3000 yards. The owner of the scope have an equally as nice range finder to confirm the ranging and I was feeding the guy behind the scope dimensions for the building features he was ranging.
For a 600 yard estimation he was under 2% off and closer to around 10% at 2600 yards. Not bad for a calculator, some guesses for window/door sizes and a mildot reticle!
I think this is the best scope i’ll ever buy unless I somehow get into 2000-3000 yard PB competitions. 😆
Believe it or not the 50MOA rail is on my Sako .22LR bolt action– it’s zeroed at 50Y. While I normally use the rifle for practice at 50-150Y I often like to shoot it at 200M-400M up at the silhouette range– at 400M it requires about 25-26 mils of elevation depending on weather that day and the particular lot of ammo. With the 50MOA base I can make it out to 400M using only the elevation turret; previously I was using a 30MOA base and had to max out the elevation turret at about 22 mils and then use additional reticle holdover for 400M. With SK Match or Wolf Match Extra it actually does amazingly well for elevation consistency at 400M, wind is another story… even a sneeze pushes a .22LR way off course at 400M. It’s still a lot of fun though!
No perceptible loss of visual clarity/quality at either 2 mils up from bottom end (50Y zero) or near the top of the elevation travel at 400M. Scope on that rifle at the moment is an SWFA 5-20HD– very nice scope for the money but I’m probably going to be switching it for a Bushnell XRS at some point which also has about 31 mils of elevation travel.
I have 3 of the S&B 5-25s but only used a 45MOA base on one of them as S&B calls for in the instructions; the S&B 5-25 will show a little bit of vignetting at the top of the image between 0 (bottomed out) and + 8 mils of elevation travel and it vignettes again (at the bottom this time) at the upper 8 mils of elevation travel. One of the S&Bs is on a 6.5 Creedmoor which doesn’t even work the scope that much– even shooting at 1350Y which is the farthest place I’ve found to shoot so far I only need about 15 mils of elevation. The scope is near mechanical zero on the erector travel at about 13 mils which is about 1250 yards. The vignetting doesn’t completely go away until I dial up about 6 mils from my 100Y zero which corresponds to about 825Y.
If I had somewhere further to shoot to say 2000-2300Y I’d probably build a .338LM and give the elevation knob more of a workout…
For the other 2 rifles I have the S&B 5-25s on I used 30MOA bases; this put the scopes right at about 8 mils up from the bottom of the elevation travel at the 100Y zero. I did this purposely so that I could eliminate the image vignetting at the zero range since these 2 scopes are on rifles that spend most of their lives dialed between 0 and 4 mils up and will never be dialed up beyond about 8-9 mils from zero because of use & caliber limitations. The vignetting doesn’t affect the scope any but it bugged me a bit seeing the “shadowed crescent” hanging out at the top of the image– so I chose the 30MOA bases instead of the 45MOA bases to raise the zero elevation to about 8 mils up from the bottom to eliminate the vignetting at the zero range and over the elevation ranges they’d be used at. 😆
Regarding reticle travel, the S&B 5-25 has about 30 mils / 108 MOA of elevation travel in the erector. Some models like the 12-50 have less, I believe the 12-50 has about 75 MOA.
I’ve looked through a few March scopes at benchrest matches and a friend has a couple of them; great glass, the turrets feel great, and I love how light and compact they are, but at least for their FFP models the wide zoom range means the reticle needs to be somewhat “thick” such that it’s still visible and usable on the low end of the magnification. Also, their power range vs objective size results in a somewhat small exit pupil and correspondingly somewhat picky eyebox. Not saying they’re bad– they’re far from it. If you use one in the right application they are great scopes.
I had to laugh at your “I can’t justify $4000 on a scope i’m only using out to 65 yards” line because I feel the same way! I’ve *love* to stick S&B, Steiner, or Kahles glass on all my rifles, powderburner and air, but it’s not cost effective– especially on say the Edgun that typically sees 150Y max or my .17HMR that I only use to about 200-250Y max. I save the top-shelf glass for my best and frequently used rifles that I like to see and shoot small things with very far away (1 of the 3 S&Bs sit on my 6.5 I shoot 1000+ with and 2 sit on my long range ground squirrel & coyote blasters where I want to see and resolve fine details a long ways out.) Everything else gets “mid range” optics; my Edgun and 10/22 have Bushnell 3-12×44 FFP scopes and then I have 4 SWFA 5-20 HDs on the remainder of my rifles (which I’m probably going to swap for Bushnell ERS or XRS scopes later this year.) Choosing a scope for an air rifle is another problem entirely as sometimes I take really close shots on rats and it’s difficult to find scopes with 10Y parallax capability; sticking your typical powder burner scope with 50Y minimum adjustable parallax on an air rifle often results in problems…
I’d stick S&B, Kahles, Steiner, March, or any top-shelf glass on all of them if I had stupid amounts of disposable income… but I don’t have that option. I’m already pushing my luck with the current selections!
I have yet to see any tracking issues on my Nikko 10-50x, while it is not a S&B it is still a quality scope. I looked at S&B scopes and some are only 65MOA total travel, even that would just barely work on my EdGun. I can’t justify $4000 on a scope i’m only using out to 65 yards and if I did go there i’d probably get the March 80x, but honestly 50x is plenty fine for field target.
I’m running a 30 yard zero with around 90 clicks at 10 yards and 40 clicks at 60 yards on my USFT (I use Chairgun to get my initial click chart numbers). When I wind up to the ten yard clicks i’m about 25 clicks from max up, which is great because I can verify that I am up one turn and then turn back down to my 30 yard zero. Getting caught one turn up in the heat of a match can be very painful. 😉
The Cricket works out to be almost in the middle of the elevation turret adjustment range (half a turn out). I don’t think the Cricket rail would work well in the larger calibers (22 & 25).
What are your zero distances where the scope is bottomed out with a 50MOA rail? 200 yards? 300? And what is the zero point at when the scope is centered, 2000 yards? Seems odd to me to over cant things and run such a nice scope to the point where the image is distorted…
I’m shooting 177, the pellet simply doesn’t drop like 22 and 25 at the typical use distances.
A rail that works well for 25 caliber shooter has no business on a 177 caliber rifle. It’s like putting a PB rail for shooting at 3000 yards on a Ruger 1022. Or a NASCAR Daytona gear box in a daily commuter car.
It’s common airgun knowledge that when shooting 177 to 65 or so yards the rail drop is typically 16MOA (anything more and the scope will run out of adjustment), for longer distances and larger calibers it’s 25MOA. A simple look at purchasing a Welman conversion rail for AA receivers will source this information.
There are a lot of little details that are worked out brilliantly on these EdGuns, the scope rail is not one of them. Quite disappointing for a rifle in the price bracket it is. I understand that Ed doesn’t sell a lot of the 177 rifles but still, for $2000 I expect a product that I can shoot when I take it out of the box without having to buy special rings or bases…
If there are rails made for the first shipment of R3’s that are level then that rail should have been put on this rifle.
But from what Ed said all the rails have 30MOA of drop.
I don’t have a 177 and haven’t run drop numbers for the 177 pellet BC, velocity & scope height, nor do I know your zero distance so I’ll take your word on it and what works well for FT & 177.
The 30MOA rail that Ed is providing works perfectly on my .25 that I use for hunting anywhere between 10Y and 140Y and I wouldn’t want a straight (0MOA) rail on the rifle. Been there on the R2.5 and it wasn’t ideal for me, ran out of elevation travel for the long shots.
Regarding running a scope near the end of the travel limits not being good on it… tell that to S&B who make it very clear in the instructions that their 5-25 is designed to be used on a rail with about 45MOA of cant– and if you follow those instructions that puts the elevation knob within about 1-2 mils of the bottom of the available elevation travel when zeroed. There will be a slight bit of vignetting (darkening of the image) in the shape of a crescent at the very top of the image with the elevation knob adjusted nearly to the bottom of the mechanical limits of travel but there are *no* tracking issues or long term durability issues setting the scope up as they instruct.
Provided you have a decent scope having your zero fall in the bottom say 1/4 (or closer) of the elevation travel or even dialing up near the upper limits of travel for long shots shouldn’t affect anything except maybe reducing available windage travel. Some scopes do exhibit some optical/visual issues when adjusted near the extremes of their elevation travel (like the vignetting in the S&B 5-25 I mentioned above.) I’ve also had friends with inexpensive scopes which start to develop noticeable tracking issues once you start deviating too far from the center of the elevation & windage travel but I’ve never ran into that problem with scopes in the $750+ range; they track correctly and repeat right up to where you can start to feel resistance in the turrets at the travel limits.
Personally, I have several long range rifles with lots of cant on their rails which put the scopes very close to the bottom of their elevation travel (50MOA rail on one rile which leaves 2 mils down / 30.5 mils up on the scope from zero.) Tracking is still perfect on all of the scopes (verified with box tests) and only a couple of the scopes exhibit visual “issues” near the mechanical travel extremes– namely the S&B 5-25’s mentioned above which have slight vignetting at the top of the image between bottomed out to +8 mils up on the elevation travel.
As always, your mileage may vary depending on the scope being used.
Anyways, enough sidetrack on your thread. Post pics when the new rail is done!
It’s not that my scope has limited travel… And it’s not good to run ANY scope at the end of it’s click limit.
I’m shooting 177, the pellet simply doesn’t drop like 22 and 25 at the typical use distances.
A rail that works well for 25 caliber shooter has no business on a 177 caliber rifle. It’s like putting a PB rail for shooting at 3000 yards on a Ruger 1022. Or a NASCAR Daytona gear box in a daily commuter car.
It’s common airgun knowledge that when shooting 177 to 65 or so yards the rail drop is typically 16MOA (anything more and the scope will run out of adjustment), for longer distances and larger calibers it’s 25MOA. A simple look at purchasing a Welman conversion rail for AA receivers will source this information.
There are a lot of little details that are worked out brilliantly on these EdGuns, the scope rail is not one of them. Quite disappointing for a rifle in the price bracket it is. I understand that Ed doesn’t sell a lot of the 177 rifles but still, for $2000 I expect a product that I can shoot when I take it out of the box without having to buy special rings or bases…
If there are rails made for the first shipment of R3’s that are level then that rail should have been put on this rifle.
But from what Ed said all the rails have 30MOA of drop.
The Burris insert rings (or adjustable base) will solve the issue on the EdGun but then compound the issue if I switch the scope to the Cricket or USFT… 😉
That makes sense, it wasn’t 100% clear in your post that the .125″ was the total elevation change front to back on the new rail.
My R3 .25 long is similar to yours, a scope with only 60MOA of adjustment would probably be right at the bottom of erector travel at a 50Y zero.
I actually appreciate Ed adding the cant in the R3– previously with my R2.5 I had to use the Signature Zee inserts for extra cant just to have barely enough elevation travel remaining to dial for 125Y shots using a scope with 21 mils / 76 MOA travel. With the R3 it’s about perfect, I have right about 3.5 mils down / 17.5 mils up from my 50Y zero using the same Signature Zee rings but with 0 (no offset) inserts. With 5 mil knobs on the scope the cant also acts as a makeshift zero stop as I can’t go more than 1 revolution below zero. 🙂
Of course, as you know it’s a different problem entirely if you’re using a scope with limited elevation travel and can’t reach your desired zero or your scope has tracking and/or optical issues when adjusted near the bottom of its elevation travel…
The ‘math’ is what is needed to tilt the raw rail enough to attain the proper angle on the mill. I did go backwards though, at 6″ it would be half of 0.0625″ instead of double.
The Burris insert rings (or adjustable base) will solve the issue on the EdGun but then compound the issue if I switch the scope to the Cricket or USFT… 😉
The Burris Signature Zee 30mm rings only have +/- .010 inserts available; only the 1″ rings have the +/- .020″ inserts available.
Remember, the Burris labeling scheme is in thousandths of inch of offset; the 10 rings are .010″ different in thickness and the 20 inserts are .020″ different in thickness. This makes calculating the ideal point of impact change easy as Burris already provides you with the shift built into the inserts and then all you need is to measure the ring spacing center to center and do the math.
Also, your math stating you’d need .125″ of shim over 6″ ring spacing to produce a 15MOA change is incorrect. At 6″ ring spacing using the +/- .010 inserts in the front and rear rings aligned for only an elevation change results in an ~11.5 MOA shift.
Formula for determining the MOA change of the inserts of the burris rings would be [arctan(ring offset / ring spacing)]*60 where ring offset is the total offset change; i.e. if your rings are 6″ center to center and you’re using a +.010″ insert on the bottom in the rear ring and a -.010″ insert on the bottom of the front ring that would be a .020″ total elevation change over that 6″ span, so you get [arctan (.020 / 6″)]*60 = 11.46 MOA
If you move the rings in a little closer together you can improve on that…
5.5″ ring spacing = 13 MOA
5.0″ ring spacing = 14.4 MOA
4.5″ ring spacing = 16 MOA
Another option for even more correction is you could use a Badger 22MOA riser rail or similar installed backwards (to reduce cant) and pair that with the Signature Zee rings to further reduce the cant. Alternatively, with the riser rail installed backwards to reduce cant by 22MOA you could keep using your Leupold QD rings. To maintain cheekweld & scope height when using the riser rail you could use lower rings.
Syn,
When you said 30 MM it came to me your problem and Burris rings and tip off rails, I never could find them either.
I have the weaver rail version both in 1″ and 30mm and use them interchangeably on the Haley and Ranger, luckily they interchange on the two guns as they have the same base spacing and on the Haley when I switch them back and forth they go back to zero.
Yes when you at the extreme range of your scope adjustment you loose accuracy, I especially notice it at extreme range like 600 yards, which is why I have the 30MM shimmed to max at 775 yards or so.
A very easy set up would be weaver Burris and one of the tip off to weaver conversion rails.
Good luck,
RC
The 1″ Burris Signature Zee rings come with 0 degree inserts and you buy a “kit” that has 5,10, and 20 degree +/- inserts.
The 30mm Signature Zee rings do not have this “kit” available but besides the 0 degree in the rings themselves come with a pair each of+/- 10 degree inserts.
+ 10 in the front and – in the back did the trick for me and my Matador was as extreme as yours.
I’m not sure if the effective effect of the +/- used in combination is 20 degrees or 10. I imagine the spacing would have some effect on that as well.
But the 30 mm Signature Zee rings will cure your whoas.
You are going to want the extra highs.
I use the burris rings on 30mm, it’s working perfectly with the included shims.
I wish the rail was level rather, and those few that do 200 yard shooting could have purchased the Burris signature rings, but that’s me.
Hi
I know that the first R3’s did not have a MOA rail.
Maybe some one on TAG has one and wants to change it with yours?
Regards, Robert
I’m currently using a scope with LOTS of vertical adjustment and it’s JUST handling the rail drop. The thing is it’s a cheap scope and I don’t want to use it for field target (although it actually has done really well for me). It clicks well but nobody makes a 4″ or larger wheel for it now. Yeah, it’s a Leapers, BUT that Leapers tracks like butter, the discontinued the 4″ wheels and now only make a 3″ one that is simply too small for the level i’m competing at right now (currently ranked #1 nationally).
I tried my trusty Nikko and it ran out of adjustment. I’m going to get a Sightron for my USFT and want to move the Nikko over to the bullpups (Cricket and EdGun).
The Sightron has 50MOA and I believe the Nikko is the same. The Leapers has 63MOA of adjustment and like I said it is at the end of the turret travel at my 30 yard zero (all clicking done from 30 yards is up). My case is extreme because the pellet doesn’t drop very much and the majority of the field targets at 55 yards and under (I practice out to 65 yards).
The really odd part is my USFT has 25MOA of rail drop and the scope isn’t as close to the edge as the EdGun (I have not checked the Cricket with the Nikko yet). If anything the USFT has the Nikko at the other end of the adjustment scale (closer to the top, about 2 turns from max). The major difference between the USFT and the bullpups is the scope is around 1.25″ higher on the USFT…
The word on scopes is that when clicking at the end of the turret travel sometimes the scope can get ‘funky’… I think the common word is it’s “undesirable” to be at the edge of the turret adjustment.
I looked long and hard into the Burris rings. For some reason that TOTALLY escapes me is they don’t make them in 30mm… Or the one they make in 30mm is set and the ‘extreme’ shims are only for the 1″ tube rings. ALL my scopes are 30mm tubes and while the rings are somewhat cheap a new scope is not and I want to be able to mix and match my scopes from rifle to rifle. I am currently using Leupold medium QR rings and often remove the scope from the rifle to clean or transport, the QR feature is very, very handy.
The calculations show I would need 1/8″ of shim at the back ring to get to 15MOA if my rings were set 6″ apart. The closer the rings are to each other the more shim I would need to even get the Burris rings to work properly at 30 yards. I believe 0.125″ is more than the Burris rings will accommodate. So even with the Burris rings I would still be close to the edge of the scope adjustments.
I actually don’t think this is going to be very difficult to do. Apart from the end mill I have all the equipment I need. Nothing ventured nothing gained, right?
Shit, I was going to make the WHOLE rail to begin with… 😯 Most of the work is already done!!
The one thing that i’m going to have to accept is that I can’t anodize the part. But from some of the rail reviews it looks like it may just be painted anyways. I designed and machined an entire frame fixture for making custom bicycles, built a dozen custom frames and built my own full suspension mountain bike frame while I was taking 18 units a semester in college, this should be a breeze. 😀
Syn,
Would not a set of Burris Signature rings with the adjustable inserts make life a lot easier?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/547603/burris-1-signature-rings-22-rimfire-and-airgun-matte-medium
They should easily take care of that much elevation. I doubt you would need do shim, however they also lend themselves to shimming between the ring and the insert, saving the scope tube from damage, on my Haley long range set up, I have the Leupold shimmed to shoot on with the closest zero at 200 yards.
Regards,
roachcreek
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First focal plane reticles aren’t just limited to S&B (S&B makes second focal plane scopes too)– many manufacturers offer FFP reticles and in the last few years more scope makers have “caught on” and started offering them. All of my scopes are FFP– it makes ranging and wind hold offs much easier because the reticle remains at the same scale & relation to the target regardless of magnification level. Compare that to a second focal plane scope where the 1 mil wind hash marks might be set to a true 1 mil at 12X but are 0.5 mil at 24X, and 2 mil at 6x… with an FFP scope it will be 1 mil regardless of magnification level. FFP makes ranging, elevation, and wind holdoffs really quick and easy because the reticle is always the same scale regardless of magnification level.
I changed all my scopes to FFP a few years ago after buying one and seeing how easy it was. No more doing math or conversion for ranging or wind with the reticle when at magnifications other than the “calibrated” magnification. FFP/mil/mil just makes sense for field shooting and dynamic situations IMO.
The drawback is an FFP reticle has to be sized appropriately such that it is usable on the lowest magnifications as well; thus they’re often a bit thicker and obscure more of the target than a second focal plane reticle.
Second focal plane reticles (where the reticle appears static in the field of view as you change the magnification level) have their place too especially in static/known distance competitions or things like F-class & benchrest where you want a super fine crosshair regardless of magnification level and have time to dial everything. An SFP reticle can be made finer and remain visible at all magnification levels so they still shine for shooting really small targets. Try and make an FFP reticle that’s sized to be very thin at high magnification and it will become so small/thin in the field of view at low magnification it will be almost invisible; clever reticle design can mitigate this however such as heavier side posts that only come into the field of view at lower magnifications turning the reticle into almost a duplex reticle at the lowest magnifications.
Saw your link, Sightron makes really nice scopes. I was happy with Leupold, Bushnell, Nightforce, IOR, and SWFA for many years until someone let me use their rifle with an S&B at a match a while back. Looking at the same target I could make out more detail than my IOR (which wasn’t a slouch in the glass department) and I was also able to run 4x more magnification with the S&B before the mirage became a problem. After that I was ruined… when I got home I started scheming and selling unused things to pay for one… and then I wanted one on my second favorite rifle… and then I ended up with 3. I had to sell a few rifles that I rarely shot to pay for the S&Bs but it was worth it– quality over quantity in this case, I’d rather have my 3 favorite rifles that I shoot often with great optics rather than have 5 infrequently used rifles sitting neglected in the back of the safe. The glass is fantastic, turrets track & feel great, and I really like their reticle choices. Just wish they were cheaper, especially as I find myself considering picking up a fourth… unfortunately I’m out of stuff to sell so I guess I’ll have to pay for this one the hard way by saving for it. LOL!