Q:

Edgun R3 .22: Shot String, Air Efficiency, & Trigger

This will be a long post, sorry about that. Ran into the dive shop to fill up the scuba tank yesterday. The shop owner put on a pressure gauge to show me how much the tank was filled, because I was “hinting” at him that I could only fill the gun to 180 bars (~2610 psi) last time with a full tank. The tank was indeed filled to the maximum pressure around 3100 psi in this new fill. Interestingly, again, I only could fill the gun up to ~180 bars based on the gun gauge; but the gauge in the fill adaptor showed 3050 psi (~210 bars). It seems that the pressure of my Edgun was somewhat under measured by 440 psi or 30 bars. 🙄

I tested a shot-string using Combro Chronograph, which is a very small and handy chronograph installed at the end of the muzzle area. The starting pressure was 180 bar (based on Edgun gauge) and JSB Heavy (18.1 grains) was used. The first shot was low in speed (878 ft/sec), but the subsequent 35 shots were consistent with average 916.5±4.5 ft/sec (minimum 910 ft/sec and maximum 926 ft/sec). The regulator came off around 130 bars (I think) because of a little rise in speed for several shots and then the speed dropped to around 840 ft/sec for about 13 shots in parallel with pressure drop. The POI (at 30 yards) started to drop slightly (~0.2”) at shot #37 (or the regulator was off at this point?) The POI didn’t further drop until pressure went below 105 bars. I got 35 good shots consuming ~800 psi (from 180 bar to 125 bar) from a 289-cc air tube with average 33.8 foot-pound muzzle energy, which is about 13.1 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency of air usage. If using Zoco’s data – green-line shot string, 220 bar to 130 bar for 57 shots, ~32.5 fpe (http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19488&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=520), I got the number 14 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency.

Based on the data from a shot-string of Royale 400 (without regulator; average 868 fps with 37 fps extreme spread) (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1318702313/FX+Royale+400+.22+-+90+shot+string+with+chart-target), which consumed 0.94 bar/shot (220 to 135 bars for 90 shots) with ~30.3 fpe from a 400-cc bottle, the air efficiency is 12.4 bar-cc/ft-lb. Using another shot-string (http://airgunadvice.net/viewtopic.php?t=12183), from 220 bars to 179 bars with 36 shots (average 954 fps with 28 fps spread) at ~36.6 fpe, I got the same number (12.4 bar-cc/ft-lb) for air efficiency. Using the data from the FX Royale 400 review video of Ted in Youtube, average 33.53 fpe and 20 fps extreme spread with high power, I got 11.1 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency. If the medium power is used (884 fps with 31.4 fpe and 13 fps extreme spread), the efficiency will be higher at 9.6 bar-cc/ft-lb. It seems Royale is a little bit better than Matador R3 (standard length) in air efficiency without much sacrificing speed variation in the un-regulator gun.

I think Edgun can be optimized by adjusting the combination of regulator and power to reach max efficiency, but it will need a lot of trial. Or this is already at the optimal condition when Ed designed and set up the gun. What do you think?

p.s
I also installed a Harris bipod BRM-S model 6”-9” in late afternoon, and ran a few shots under high-gust wind (>20 miles/hr) before dark. It seems to improve the unstable sitting of the gun and increase the shooting accuracy. 😛 Will test more tomorrow if weather is good.


EdGun

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Viewing 15 replies - 181 through 195 (of 229 total)

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[quote]could be

lol…I think I covered myself by saying “could be” and not “would be”. 🙂
I already inquired about the pistol as well lol

For now though, I’m going to focus on acclimating myself with the one I have and learning all I can about the beast!

Thanks for your help, Tedd 🙂

Hi Jerry, welcome aboard and welcome to the Edgun owners club!

Jerry wrote:

quote :

I know very little about pcp guns, but I began by wanting to find a pcp gun that could be good enough to be my first and last pcp gun. After researching, I picked the Matador.

Yeah, right! Nobody stops at 1 Edgun! 😯 😆

Thanks a lot Mark! I have only shot 3 rounds through it on the original fill it comes shipped with lol bc I’m waitng on my scope and great white! But, those were the crispiest 3 shots I have evet felt out of any gun! I can’t wait to get the rest of my gear so I can have some real fun. I am very accurate with my rws 48 springer at 75 yards, so this thing is going to be REAL fun with no recoil and the super smooth trigger…so I am assuming! The bullpup seems so nicer and steady compared to my heavy ass springer. Thanks for your input!

Congrats Jerry,This is the place for all your Edgun info and more 🙄
Good choice for your first PCP you won`t be dissapointed.Took me a
couple of weeks to get used to shooting the bullpup,now it seems
natural.Takes about 2000 rounds for gun to settle in.
regards,mark

I’ve been waiting for months and months…it just came before I was ready bc time flies when you are busy. I’ve been shooting the heck out of my springer (rws48)…it’s kept my mind off of it a little.

How did you get an edgun so fast, or have you been waiting a long time like the rest of us? I cant wait to get mine, sometimes after reading some of these post , i dont think it will ever come. good luck and have fun,shoot some for me.

I am a new proud owner of the Edgun Standard .22 and I was amazed as soon as I held this puppy! I know very little about pcp guns, but I began by wanting to find a pcp gun that could be good enough to be my first and last pcp gun. After researching, I picked the Matador. I planned on getting all of the gear for it while I waited for it’s arrival, but I somehow wound up with the gun before all of the knowledge about it and the stuff to go with it. Anyway, I have the Great White tank in the process, my scope and bi-pod is on their way and I have plenty of the recommended jsb’s from Tony (who is awesome to deal with). As much as I am happy with the gun without having barely shot it, I am happy to know how awesome you guys are in this forum. I just wanted to say thanks for being such a helpful bunch! Thanks! Lord knows I will need all the help I can get as I learn about my new work of art! 🙂

Jerry

quote oldgoat:

Endo, I knew that you would get it set up to your liking! You have turned out to be pickier than I am. Your graphs look very good, I wish that I knew how to make them!

I think that you and Yoda have taken Matador tuning to the next level!

If you want to and can spend the time, these Matadors can be set up to shoot shot strings that I don’t think can be duplicated by any other high end airgun.

It looks like it takes a lot of time and effort to tune one and I guess that it does but, I enjoy doing it and I think that you have got the “Edgun Bug” also! Fun to play with; aren’t they!

I just might need your help with my Matador + custom Hart barrels + swaged bullets project that is coming up!

Dr. Edgun, thank you.
You are right that other high-end guns are not as good as Matador in terms of shot consistency and accessibility for tuning. If we do search on the high-end guns in Yellow, such as FX Elite with regulator: Max spread ~17 fps with SD ~4.8 and the FX Gladiator MKII regulated: Max spread ~20 fps with SD 4.8. They all brag about their consistency. I think they are nowhere near our Matadors. I do enjoy tuning my Matador, and have learned a lot during this process. Now, I know my Matador in-and-out and shoot with confidence. Please keep us informed on the Hart barrel and swaged bullets… will follow the lead.

Hoot and Kazzz: Thanks for the comments.

dvdrw:
Thanks for the suggestions. The stock reg was originally set to 130-bar as written on the reg housing. I initially reduced it by turning in a little more than 1/3 of turn, and at that setting the speed maximized out around 890 fps (graph 1). It shows a significant waste of air and I can’t live with it. If I further reduce the reg setting, than I will have difficulty to reach my target speed (~890 fps) even I crank up the HST. That is the reason I cannot further reduce the reg pressure. I actually don’t know what is the pressure set at my current position (about ¼ trun-in from the stock). But I can get the speed I want at this setting and it has some room for me to increase/decrease the speed with a reasonable consistency. The variation within a fill can be dependent upon multiple factors and their combinations: regulator sensitivity, valve movement, size of transfer port, hammer weight and preload (HST) and maybe other things such as temperature that I don’t know. I believe each gun has its own character (each gun has its own tune). I have shot so many strings. The strings showed in the graph or reported in the posts are the typical ones but not the best. The best I got is 891±2.0 fps with 7 fps max spread and average 2.0 fps shot to shot variation. I feel it may be misleading to show the best one. I feel that my Matador performs within that typical range, sometimes very good and sometimes not so good (I would not say “bad”, because it isn’t). I feel that at this level, the small, <2 fps, variation between fills and average 2-3 fps between shots is quite normal and acceptable. I thought 100-bar reg setting is good for gun to shoot 12 ft-lb for FAC (like Yoda’s tuning for shooting at 570 fps). Unfortunately, my gun couldn’t effectively reach 890 at that setting if 110-bar is at the 1/3 turn-in location of the regulator. So, the option of further reducing reg does not work for my Matador. Any other options that can further reduce the variability while keep the air efficiency?:idea:

I use Combro for chronying the speed. It is a small device hooking up to the gun muzzle (http://www.chronoscopes.com/), which is insensitive to light and location, and you always shoot the pellet with the same angle (sensors are always perpendicular to the direction of velocity). I would not say Combro is very accurate, but I know it is very consistent. I couldn’t justify to get a new chronograph and a gun vise at this moment because I have to fix my window killed by Matador.:oops:

I use Prism software (http://www.graphpad.com/welcome.htm) for data analysis and graphing. It is powerful and user friendly.

Regards,
Endo

Endo, the string looks good but it can be better. I also have the Edgun bug so I like to tinker and this is what I’ve come up this far. Maybe it will help you.

If I read correctly, you start to loose speed at around 110 BAR. My reg is set to 100BAR and I have 9fps ES and 3fpsSS at 905fps. I think 100BAR is the best adjustment on the reg. Ed said that with the reg set to 100BAR, if you exceed 900fps you will begin to damage the bronze nut on the valve so I set it to the limit. I’ve fired over 300 shots with this set-up and looked at the valve and the hammer didn’t seem to reach the bronze nut.

I don’t know how you registered those speeds but you need to lock your gun and chrony, so you can shoot every time at the same distance from the first sensor and at the same angle. 1-2 inches from the first sensor will be the best. Than, if you have the same ES, you need to turn down your reg a little more to around 100BAR and HST also to around 900fps. That will definitely be an improvement.

Great chart BTW! What software did you used? I used Hawke Chairgun PRO (Tools/Statistics) and although it does his job, it does not have the complexity of your chart.

Bottomline:

Respect for OG and endothelium…

Great what you guys do!

Excellent charts! That took some serious thought!

Regards,

H 😯 😯 T

Endo, I knew that you would get it set up to your liking! You have turned out to be pickier than I am. Your graphs look very good, I wish that I knew how to make them!

I think that you and Yoda have taken Matador tuning to the next level!

If you want to and can spend the time, these Matadors can be set up to shoot shot strings that I don’t think can be duplicated by any other high end airgun.

It looks like it takes a lot of time and effort to tune one and I guess that it does but, I enjoy doing it and I think that you have got the “Edgun Bug” also! Fun to play with; aren’t they!

I just might need your help with my Matador + custom Hart barrels + swaged bullets project that is coming up!

This is an update, and a long post, on the shot string and air efficiency of my Standard R3 .22 Matador after regulator adjustments. The goal is to tune the gun to shoot at 890 fps with the highest standard described by Dr. Edgun: “3-4 fps shot to shot variation and a max speed spread of 10-12 fps”. I have played around the reg lately and my previous strings showed a creeping down of speed with shots (reducing ~6 to 8 fps; see previous post). I was not happy with it. So I re-adjusted the reg pressure and did some fine tune on HST. Here is what I have learned from tuning the Matador. I thought it might be useful to those who are interesting in optimizing the gun.

The goal is to get an optimal reg pressure and HST for speed ~890 fps (the range of best accuracy). Here is the protocol for my tuning:
1) Adjust reg to where you think it should be for the target speed (in my case, 1/3 trun-in from the stock setting to start with)
2) Fill the gun and turn the HST two turns out (reduce HST)
3) Shoot 5 pellets to ensure the HST is reduced enough to the speed around 100 fps below the target speed (my target speed is 890 fps)
4) Shoot 5-shot groups for each increment in HST (i.e., turning in the screw 1/8-turn for each tension increment) and record the speed vs. tension.
5) The amount of speed increase vs. tension increment should taper off and reach the plateau (this should be the optimal tension for the reg). The speed will drop if you further increase the tension. This is commonly referred as “1st peak” (but I stopped when speed reaches plateau)
6) The optimal tension might not match the speed you want (e.g., if the speed is lower than the target speed, see #7 below)
7) Increase reg pressure (or decrease reg pressure if the speed is too high)
8) Repeat the process from #2 to #7 (goal is to find the balance between the reg pressure and the HST for the desire speed).
9) END the loop if the goal is achieved.

Here is an example of the speed vs HST in two of my adjustments. The open triangle in the 1st graph shows the reg is set to 0.375 turn-in (135˚) from the stock. The speed is increased with increasing HST and reaches plateau around 2.5 turn-in with speed 880 fps. I further increased HST (3 turn-in) in the plateau region to reach the target speed 890 fps. In this setting, 194 bars starting pressure (gun gauge), I got average speed of 890.3±2.6 fps with 14 fps maximum spread and average 2 fps variation between shots (see 2nd graph). I had about 57 shots before a significant speed drop. There is no creeping in this string. I like these numbers. But the air efficiency (~14 cc-bar/ft-lb) is relatively low compared to the stock setting (about 13 cc-bar/ft-lb). This means that a larger amount of air is required for spitting out one ft-lb energy (lower value indicates better air efficiency). I think the reg pressure was set too low to effectively reach my target speed. To compensate that I had to increase HST beyond optimal level, and this would have caused a significant waste of air. As Dr. Edgun said “Edgun Matador owners are a bunch of picky bastards!” and I think he is correct. I re-adjusted the reg to increase pressure (0.25 turn-in, i.e., 90˚ from the stock) and the gun speed reached plateau at 890 fps with less effort (2.375 turn-in HST, 1st graph). The shot string, with 193 bars starting pressure (gun gauge), is now average 889.8±2.7 fps with 11 fps maximum spread and average 3.2 fps variation between shots (2nd graph). The calculated air efficiency was improved to 12.4 cc-bar/ft-lb (see the smaller slope of pressure-line with closed circle in 2nd graph) and the shot count was increased from 57 to 65 before dropping in speed. This setting also gives me some room to increase speed when I need it (of course at the expense of reducing air efficiency). But, again, I was not happy with some (3) shots exceed 9-fps change and a slight creeping up in speed with shots. So, I increased the HST a little bit to see if these hiccoughs and creeping can be cured. Now, I got 892±2.2 fps with 9 fps maximum spread and average 2.2 fps shot to shot variation (one hiccough with 6 fps). The speed creeping is gone. The air efficiency reduced a little bit to 12.8 cc-bar/ft-lb with 60 regulated shots. I gain something also lose something. I think the Matador has been pushed to its limit.

I see several benefits from this tune. Statistically, it has 1) significantly reduced the speed variation between fills, 2) significantly reduced the maximum spread of speed, 3) significantly reduced the speed variation between shots, 4) significantly improved air efficiency if HST is set to optimal level, 5) significantly increased the number of regulated shot. Non-statistically, I feel a lot better on my confidence on the gun. But the quest for the Optimal Edgun is never ending. In fact, the stock Matador shoots well, and there is no need to do these tunes if you are not picky on speed variations and air efficiency (either between fill, within fill, or between shots). Matador will still kill what he’s supposed to kill effectively and even kill what he’s not supposed to kill such as my double-pane windows. 👿

In the tuning process, there was a lot of try-and-error and many small incremental adjustments. I have used at least 4/5 tins of pellets and lots air. Without the advice and help from Dr. Edgun (Oldgoat/Tedd), this tune would not be possible. The de-gas tool he sent me has made the reg adjustment much easier and efficient, and the HST screw he made is also very useful. Thank you!

Hopefully, this post is helpful to those who want to push the Matador to its maximum potential.

Next focus will be the accuracy…. I think this is the most interesting and important one.
Regards,
Endo

HST vs Speed

Shot String Comparison

Thanks, I’ll try it.

I’m so sorry for hijacking your thread. I accidentally posted the news of my Edgun here whilst reading about your shot string. I thought I was posting in my own thread, but only after realized I’m in the wrong browser tab.

I was about to delete it, but then you replied, so I thought I’ll keep it.

Can’t wait to mount a scope. I want to get myself a chrono too. So many necessities ans so little money… lol.

BigB, my gun was made (assembled) in Estonia too (serial no. 3).:D
Yes, the first stage is very short. In my gun, the fist stage disappears when you are doing a second pull on the trigger. This is different from yours. In earlier posts, Dr. Edgun gave some tips for adjusting/lightening the trigger. He said “try turning the rear trigger screw almost all of the way out and then turn the front screw in until the gun will not cock. Then turn the front screw out till you like the trigger.” Hopefully, this is helpful.

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