Edgun R3 .22: Shot String, Air Efficiency, & Trigger
This will be a long post, sorry about that. Ran into the dive shop to fill up the scuba tank yesterday. The shop owner put on a pressure gauge to show me how much the tank was filled, because I was “hinting” at him that I could only fill the gun to 180 bars (~2610 psi) last time with a full tank. The tank was indeed filled to the maximum pressure around 3100 psi in this new fill. Interestingly, again, I only could fill the gun up to ~180 bars based on the gun gauge; but the gauge in the fill adaptor showed 3050 psi (~210 bars). It seems that the pressure of my Edgun was somewhat under measured by 440 psi or 30 bars. 🙄
I tested a shot-string using Combro Chronograph, which is a very small and handy chronograph installed at the end of the muzzle area. The starting pressure was 180 bar (based on Edgun gauge) and JSB Heavy (18.1 grains) was used. The first shot was low in speed (878 ft/sec), but the subsequent 35 shots were consistent with average 916.5±4.5 ft/sec (minimum 910 ft/sec and maximum 926 ft/sec). The regulator came off around 130 bars (I think) because of a little rise in speed for several shots and then the speed dropped to around 840 ft/sec for about 13 shots in parallel with pressure drop. The POI (at 30 yards) started to drop slightly (~0.2”) at shot #37 (or the regulator was off at this point?) The POI didn’t further drop until pressure went below 105 bars. I got 35 good shots consuming ~800 psi (from 180 bar to 125 bar) from a 289-cc air tube with average 33.8 foot-pound muzzle energy, which is about 13.1 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency of air usage. If using Zoco’s data – green-line shot string, 220 bar to 130 bar for 57 shots, ~32.5 fpe (http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19488&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=520), I got the number 14 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency.
Based on the data from a shot-string of Royale 400 (without regulator; average 868 fps with 37 fps extreme spread) (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1318702313/FX+Royale+400+.22+-+90+shot+string+with+chart-target), which consumed 0.94 bar/shot (220 to 135 bars for 90 shots) with ~30.3 fpe from a 400-cc bottle, the air efficiency is 12.4 bar-cc/ft-lb. Using another shot-string (http://airgunadvice.net/viewtopic.php?t=12183), from 220 bars to 179 bars with 36 shots (average 954 fps with 28 fps spread) at ~36.6 fpe, I got the same number (12.4 bar-cc/ft-lb) for air efficiency. Using the data from the FX Royale 400 review video of Ted in Youtube, average 33.53 fpe and 20 fps extreme spread with high power, I got 11.1 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency. If the medium power is used (884 fps with 31.4 fpe and 13 fps extreme spread), the efficiency will be higher at 9.6 bar-cc/ft-lb. It seems Royale is a little bit better than Matador R3 (standard length) in air efficiency without much sacrificing speed variation in the un-regulator gun.
I think Edgun can be optimized by adjusting the combination of regulator and power to reach max efficiency, but it will need a lot of trial. Or this is already at the optimal condition when Ed designed and set up the gun. What do you think?
p.s
I also installed a Harris bipod BRM-S model 6”-9” in late afternoon, and ran a few shots under high-gust wind (>20 miles/hr) before dark. It seems to improve the unstable sitting of the gun and increase the shooting accuracy. 😛 Will test more tomorrow if weather is good.
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BigB,
Congratulations to be a member of Edgun owner. You will certainly enjoy the gun more once you shoot it. To my understanding, the owner manual is not updated for R3, and the gun was shipped without DVD. Is your gun made in Russia or Estonia?
I remember this is called “Edguntitis”. 🙁
I just want to thank everyone for the kind advice and assistance.
I’m now the proud owner of a standard Matador in 5.5mm. Serial: 0011.
The serial number would suggest it was one of the first r3’s manufactured. According to the manual, if I understand the Russian correctly, it was manufactured in September of last year (2011).
Is it customary for a DVD to be included with the manual? I did not find one attached.
The craftsmanship is exemplary. I do not yet have a scope mounted, but will do so in due time. I’m dying to put it through its paces. The rifle shoulders extremely well, and I’m certain this will contribute to the soon to be observed accuracy. I find the handling to be spectacular. The rifle feels part of you, instead of constantly reminding you that you are holding something.
According to the test target at the back of the manual it fires 18.1gr pellets at 279 m/s. At 50m it fires 7 pellets practically through the same hole with the 8th, 9th and 10th grouping about 5mm to the left, right and bottom of the 7-sshot hole respectively. I’m certain this can be further improved as well.
Oh…and the wood? It’s beautiful and full of character.
I will try and post pics as soon as possible, but my arm is in a sling due to a torn pectoral. Thus, I cannot yet relieve the tremendous amount anxiety to mount a scope and fire it. I swear this is worse than the pain in my shoulder.
Thanks yet again,
BigB.
Thanks Dr. Edgun. I am glad to know that my gun still has room to improve. Will look again on the air valve housing :oops:, and tune down the reg again 🙂 . The pic you show is very helpful.
Enjoy the hunt… some pics/videos later ❓
Regards,
Endo
Endo, I am happy that you are happy! 🙂
Myself, I can’t leave good enough alone and, if that gun was mine, I would turn the reg down just a hair more and play with the HST a little.
I like my Matadors to start around 890. Set up correctly; there should be no more than a 3-4 fps variation shot to shot and no more than a 10-12 fps max spread while on the reg.
I don’t think that turning the HST out a little and bringing the start speed down to 890 will flatten out the string the way the reg is set right now.
I got your email stating that there were no threads on the rear of the air valve. Both of my R2.5s and my R3 have threads on the the rear of the air valve. Are you looking in the right place? 😆
A guy I work with told me that he saw several ground squirrels run across the road on his way to work today! I have been watching for them little buggars for a couple of weeks now! The last 3,000 O rings will have to wait before being counted and sorted!
I want to do some long range head shots this weekend!
This is an update on the variation of speed from fill to fill on my gun as stated in my previous posts. I took Dr. Edgun’s suggestion to reduce reg pressure by 1/3 turn and also reduce HST by ½ turn (set at ~890 fps) on tension screw. I have shot some strings in different days with different temperatures (40F to 75F) and fill pressures (150 bars to 195 bars). It appears that the speed variation problem is gone after reg adjustment. But I found the air efficiency was significantly reduced (13 cc-bar/ft-lb vs. 15 cc-bar/ft-lb) by decreasing reg pressure. Dr. Edgun suggested to reduce HST to 840 fps and than gradually increase to 890 fps. Again, he is right, this HST adjustment fixed the problem. The number of regulated shots is generally increased from 55 to almost 65 shots (~193 bar to ~100 bars) (see picture). The speed is much stable between shots. Dr. Edgun has made a correct diagnosis on my gun and his remedies do work. He also kind enough to make me a longer HST screw and a de-gas tool (see picture). What a talent guy! But I haven’t figured out how to use the de-gas tool yet. 😳
Thank you Dr. Edgun! 😀
Regards,
Shot String comparison before and after regulator adjustment
Lock nut with HST screw (black one) and de-gas tool
Dood day to everyone!
Oldgoat thanks for the advice and laughs you provide us. Not only did you hit your chrony but you managed to hit it dead nuts, well almost. As for the air bubble in a glycerin gauage, the glycerin in a pressure gauge is not there to protect the needle – it’s there to dampen needle bounce from rapid pressure fluctuations as you stated and makes the gauge easier to read. Glycerin is also non-compressible – adding more to a gauge will reduce the pocket of compressible air that is required for the glycerin to displace at high pressures. Adding more glycerin could in some cases case harm to gauage.
That’s called Alzheimer here 🙂
Endo, I really think that you do need to adjust your regulator down.
It really looks harder to do than it is! It is not that big of a deal. Once you get over the phobia of opening the gun up, I would bet that you will enjoy doing it! Ed makes his guns to be tuned/adjusted/repaired by the owner! When I get a new one, I can’t leave the damn thing alone; I have to adjust/tune it.
Just make sure that you have all of the air pressure out before you remove the front plug!
Thanks Kazzz! I try to learn from my mistakes but, at my age, I wake up in a new world every morning!
Trygve, my second Chrony has a detachable readout. I will have to try really hard to kill it but, someday I just could get lucky/unlucky! 😆
Hoot: We all know that you enjoy being on the painful end of mule sex! I guess it must be an accepted lifestyle around Toad Suck Arkansas but: the rest of the world just doesn’t swing like that! 😯
After mule sex, if you would have waited for your eyes to recede back into their sockets, you would have noticed that the gauge was glycerin filled. The glycerin fluid dampens needle fluctuations when the gauge is used on high pressure air compressor applications. The glycerin wasn’t needed for my application; it just turned out to be cheaper than a non filled one.
The top of the gauge has a rubber plug (not a butt plug: don’t get excited!) that can be removed and more glycerin can be added to remove the bubble.
@ OG:
idd a classic but.. When you never do something wrong, you can’t learn from it eather!
Mark, the set screw is in place and secured, and I will certainly try Ballistol when it arrives.
Mike, kind of glad to hear that I am not alone. I also have at least 2500 rounds through the Edgun. The variation of speed with fill bothers me because it can cause ±40 fps difference in speed between fills (±20 fps) if we also consider the variation within the fill (±10 to 20 fps). This will cause accuracy problem with long distance shooting if not sights in the gun in each fill. I don’t know if this is the “normal” behavior of the stock Edgun (R3 .22) or not. Ed should be able to address the question/concern.
I have been carefully setting the lock set-screw while doing the tension adjustment and, in fact, I just took out the set-screw and the tension screw (see pictures below) to examine if they are damaged. It looks fine and there is no apparent damage on the thread of tension screw, although a slight wearing can be seen. I like Tedd’s idea of locking the tension screw using lock-nut instead of the set screw. I found the tension screw was only screw-in by 2.5 turns (factory setting for 920-fps tension as Ed set up for the gun before shipping out). There is not much room allowed for tension reduction from the factory setting. In terms of locking set-screw, I unscrewed it until it was indeed loosened before doing tension adjustment and then tightened it back in by 3 turns after done the adjustment. I know I didn’t over tighten it by counting how many turns from the factory setting (and by my feeling also).
Tedd, thanks for the information and it is very useful. To me Combro is quite consistent, although it might not be accurate. I have tested it in various lighting conditions even under fluorescent light and they all read consistently. There is only one pellet path in the Combro so I don’t have to worry about the variation of shooting path. In long distance shooting, when speed reading is high from Combro, then the POI is also high, vice versa. Combro’s reading is consistent with the change of POI with speed. But I will try to get Chrony beta for comparison. I have noticed the speed variations between fills even in the factory setting and that is the reason why I was fiddling with the tension adjustment to see if it can be improved by reducing the speed slightly to around 900 fps as you suggested. So far, I have no luck with this because the average speed keeps changing with fill. I couldn’t figure that out why adjusting the speed only by ~20 fps needs to make adjustment on the regulator also. This is not convenient. Now, I keep the tension at 1/8-turn out from the stock. The mean speed is going to be in the range of 890 to 930 fps, but I am not sure if the speed in this fill will be consistent with that in next fill. Mentally, I am not ready to adjust the regulator yet. I am not good at putting things back together and don’t want to mess up the gun. I have watched your video on regulator adjustment. It certainly needs some skill to do it right.
By the way, Tedd, it is a very nice setup for your Chrony and tank gauge, very professional. I think the “bubble” is some kind of solution filling to protect the gauge. I am surprised that Edgun can do that kind of damage out at 100 yards.
Regards,
Endo
This picture shows the lock-screw for hammer tension screw, which is removed.
This picture shows the hammer tension screw, which is removed.
Now that is classic !!!! 😀
Been there, done that. Not once, – but several times…. 😳
There’s a reason why I prefer chronies with a screen separate from the main unit…… 😉
Cheers from Trygve
in Lanzarote 😀
Thanks Kazzz.
The day that I took that pic, I still managed to shoot my chrony.
I was getting the reg and HST set and was also shooting at 100 yard targets. I thought that I would move the Chrony out to 100 yards and get the 25.4 JSB’s speeds there. I wanted to plug the numbers into ChairGun and have it give me a BC.
I thought that I would put my Combro on the end of the shroud and get muzzle and 100 yard speeds at the same time.
I already knew where the 100 yard POI was so, I set the Chrony’s screens up where the pellet would go through dead center.
I neglected to compensate for the Combros extra weight moving the shroud and barrel down somewhat! 😳
For serious regulator adjustments, I came up with this. I know that each shot string is going to go thru the same spot.
This is awesome! 😀
Nice tip Shaggy!
Poor ‘Ol Goat…..did you notice his gauge had a bubble in it near the top?
For the money he paid for that instrument it shouldn’t have defects!!!
Nice ‘Ol fella, just can’t seem to catch a break! Did you know he’s allergic to lanolin???
Regards,
Kindly and knowledgable…Uncle H 😯 😯 T
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Thanks so much!
The rifle is made in Estonia.
I noticed with the trigger that the first stage is really short (almost nonexistent) and light, whilst the second stage is very crisp albeit a bit heavier that I’m used to.
I also noticed that if you pull the trigger past the first stage and slightly into the second stage, but not so much as to finish the second stage releasing the sear and firing the rifle, and then releasing the trigger again, it produces a more pronounced first stage. I.e. the first stage is then longer before entering into the second stage. Is this normal?