FULL AUTO

I have to chime in because it’s a common error that bugs me… There is no such thing as a “Class III” weapon– but there are Class III FFL holders which are allowed to deal in Title II firearms, title II firearms being controlled by the NFA. Class I, II, and III are different grades of SOT holders (special occupation tax) that classify what the FFL (dealer) can and can’t dabble in.

Title I firearms are your usual long guns (rifles, shotguns, revolvers, handguns, etc) and Title II firearms are those that require an NFA tax stamp (i.e. fully automatic weapons, destructive devices, etc.)

So technically any weapon or device that requires an NFA tax stamp (registered pre-86 sear, pre-86 automatic weapon, etc) is correctly called a Title II firearm.

Not all states allow federal Title II firearms to be owned by individuals. My home state of California is such an example. There are exemptions for law enforcement, some corporations that manage to get one of the permits (i.e. movie supply houses) but your average run-of-the-mill CA resident can’t send off a tax stamp to buy a pre-86 registered AK because it is illegal at a state level. Compare that to a Title-II friendly state such as Nevada lets their residents have all the fun toys they want… as long as their wallets allow it.

Any firearm purchase from an FFL (dealer) is required to go through the ATF form 4473 DROS paperwork and a NICS background check regardless of what state that transaction takes place in. What is different is some states allow you to take the weapon home immediately after the NICS check comes back clean where other states require a waiting period from the time of DROS (dealer record of sale) to when you can pick it up.

Another area that differs state by state is how PPT (private party transactions) are handled. Again, using California as an example all PPT’s are required by law to go to an FFL holder for the background check & DROS and then the dealer gets to hold onto the weapon for the state mandated 240 hour (10 day) waiting period. Other states such as Arizona allow face to face private party sales without having to go through an FFL or a background check (but it is highly recommended that both parties fill out and keep papers of their names, drivers license numbers, and gun serial number.) This isn’t a “gunshow loophole” that the media likes to use as a talking point but it is individual state law. For example guy A is walking around a gunshow in Arizona with an M1 Garand on a sling with a “for sale” sign taped to it. Guy B walks up and buys it for cash and leaves without going through a dealer for DROS paperwork. Is that a gun show loophole? Nope! Because while he purchased it at a gunshow it isn’t a loophole because that kind of dealerless private party transaction is allowed at a state level and could just have easily happened via a newspaper ad, internet ad, etc.

Back to the original post… the only fully automatic weapon you can buy without paperwork “cash and carry” is HOT. It’s either stolen or converted without the proper NFA paper trail and possession of it can get you in quite a bit of trouble for having a non-registered NFA firearm at a federal level on top of whatever state laws you may also be breaking.

There’s also constructive possession to worry about– for example, it’s not hard to buy a M16 select fire trigger group. They’re just parts and have legal uses such as replacing worn components in a legally registered full auto title II AR15/M16. However, if you own a legal semi auto AR-15 rifle and also own that M16 trigger group it’s considered “constructive possession” because you have all the parts needed to construct an unregistered NFA firearm and they can prosecute on that.

To buy a legal full auto weapon, you must first be in a state that allows them. Find out what you want (and transferrable pre-86 title II guns ain’t cheap) and then you need to send off your tax stamp and money to the ATF. Once you get that paperwork back you can take possession of the weapon from the FFL that has it. Another option is to get an FFL of your own and pay for the class 2 SOT (manufacturer) status; then you can not only bring in post-86 title II “dealer samples” (much cheaper) but you can also build your own new title II weapons provided you file paperwork with the ATF each time you create a new title II weapon. The catch here is you have to stay current with the paperwork and fees because if you lose your class 2 SOT status you have to sell all those post-86 samples and weapons you constructed.

Federal and state gun laws are complex and convoluted… my examples above are quick and dirty. I don’t believe I missed anything or reported anything incorrect but I did skim over it pretty quick. What I can say with 100% confidence is your liberal friend is 100% incorrect. You cannot do what he believes you can… legally anyways. There are often shady deals to be found both inside and outside of gunshows that are in no way legal. What happens inside gunshows is 99% of the time legal on both a federal and state level. Those guys who break the rules get all the media attention, and the media does love a good gun story…

FYI, here’s a good example of pricing on legal pre-86 NFA weapons. Because there is a very finite supply of transferrable pre-86 NFA weapons and no shortage of buyers for them there are typically big numbers in front of the decimal point.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html

No such thing as “without background checks” since they will always check, but yeah, the rest was right.

Class 3 weapons are awesome, but the $ amount is usually utterly ridiculous. 😆

Anyone can own a fully automatic weapon, and can buy them just about anywhere, including from private collectors, no matter where they chose to sell them. Here’s an interesting short article about a man who bought conversion parts at a gun show… http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/12/eveningnews/main529068.shtml

It’s a felony offense not to comply with the Federal laws regarding Class III weapons transfer and ownership, including paying the $200 tax involved.

A lot of individuals own illegal full auto weapons. The Rugar 10/22 is a prime example of how private owners can modify a simple semi-auto action into a full auto configuration. The inexpensive AK-47, and its numerous spin-offs, are not difficult to modify. You can even find plans to do this on the internet, and from private owners. Even the parts can be purchased, if you know who, and where to ask, and are willing to pay the street price. But when you get them near the weapon they are meant to convert to full auto, the law assumes you now own a fully automatic weapon.

The same is true of producing all manners of explosions out of ordinary household chemicals. The most common being ammonia nitrate and fuel oil, kerosene, and light diesel fuel.

The real question is whether you are stupid enough to risk the huge fines, and likelyhood of felony jail time involved in such undertakings. Further, the BATF isn’t that stupid. They know individuals are looking for such things. So you never know who you are really talking to when you pursue such interests. It’s not that hard for an honest citizen to comply with the regulations to obtain a class III weapon. They are very expensive, and are highly prized by collectors.

There are a finite number of fully automatic weapons available out there for legit buyers. New ones are not available for sale. Since the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act of May 19, 1986, ownership of newly manufactured machine guns has been prohibited to civilians. Thus, every year their value rises accordingly.

Besides, at nearly a buck a shot, at 400 to 1000 rounds per minute, who could afford to unload a 50 round drum at the local range? Even an MP-5, in 9mm, is just too costly to blow away a budget in a few seconds. What’s the fun of a gun you can’t afford to shoot?

Incidentially, my father in law was a noncom in WWII, and got to carry a Thompson, similar to the above. He said the first thing everyone did was toss those son ‘a bitches away after they hit the beach. They were just too heavy to lug around, let alone carry those monster .45 cal rounds. He said most of the men just grabbed a Jap rifle and carried those. It wasn’t like there was a shortage at that time. He got two purple hearts and five bronze stars for his four years involvement. I never found that out until after his death and read his military discharge papers. He didn’t have much to say about his experiences, and never any details.

Kindly, ignornant ‘Ol Uncle Hoot 😯

yea the old gun show loophole. no such thing. you have to pay a transfer fee if and when you find a fully auto weapon. gun shows that ive been to you follow all and i mean all atf rules. lol. denny