Hello all . . new guy here…many questions answered…again
Hey guys and gals! Hope your new year went well, and that the rest of it brings a lot of nice pellet groups! 🙂
Ok, I’m new to this stuff, and am looking at buying my first QUALITY air rifle. I’ve decided to go with PCP since I already have a couple cheap springers. They do fine at short range, but after that, well, you can imagine. . .
After doing my research, I found that the Air Force rifles seem to be a pretty darn good rifle, and it fits what I need it to do. I am a falconer and need to put small game in the freezer to feed my raptors. I want the rifle to be accurate enough to do head shots on squirrels and rabbits out to about 50 yards — maybe more. I hear that if I do my part, the air force rifles will certainly hold up their end of the bargain at that distance.
I’ve decided to go with .22 caliber, but need to know the differences between the condor, the talon, and the ss rifles.
Oh — one more thing: Where does the .25 caliber shine the best? I have no experience with this caliber, but haven’t completely ruled it out. All my springers have been .177 and I am leaning towards the .22, unless there is a huge advantage to the .25 in the air force rifles that someone may be able to tell me about.
Thanks for the help!
All Replies
i went with a used (and abused) TUNED .25 Condor as my first AirForce gun.
i figured it would give me the most options.
really, it doesn’t mater what you get (first) if your ANYTHING like the rest of us, you’ll end up with 3 or more guns within the year 😛
o wait, this IS your 3rd air gun…
.
Get the .22 Condor. It will net you the most options.
Welcome guys!!
x2 on the TT Condor in .25 cal.
Good general info critter.. 😎
Welcome to the club. Get a TT Condor and settle in for some fun.
LAter
Welcome to HEll. 😉
But you STILL go and shoot that light weight crap! Yeesh! Some guys….
Other points in favor of the .25, in windy areas, the .25 bucks the wind a LOT Better!
When pushed at the same velocity, due to the higher BC, the has less drop. 😉
These two attributes along with a few others, translate to better practical long rang accuracy. Less side to side inconsistency, and less high low variance. A good Thing! 😉 😀
This is my first post here so hello all. Fantastic forum you guys have built here.
Critter, that was a very good post. Thank you.
Different Models:
The AF rifles are all very similar:
TSS- 12″ Barrel, long frame w/ a short rail -Standard Valve
Talon- 18″ Barrel, Short frame/ rail- Standard Valve
Condor- 24in Barrel, Long frame, Long rail- HI-Flo valve
The whole short rail/ long rail /short frame/ long frame means nothing. It has no bearing on modifications other than with shrouds, so as a beginner, you can disregard it.
Comparative Pics: http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2508
{The “Talon” in the above link is an 18″ Talon, not the SS}
Performance/ Efficency
Each rifle can be changed to operate at the performance level of another.
Example : I have a TSS and I want it to shoot like a Condor
– Swap Valve, Hammer and Barrel- You now have a Condor (Basically)
Stock Power:
Talon- 30FPE out of the box (21grs @ ~800ft/s in .22) -40shots/fill
TSS- 24FPE out of the box (21grs @ ~735ft/s in .22) -40shots/fill
Condor- 65fpe out of the box(21grs@ ~1140ft/s in .22) 😯 -20 shots
As you can see, the Condor needs a very heavy pellet ( 28 grn. Euin Jin/ JSB Monsters) to stay under the sound barrier (Pellets become innacurate near the transsonic zone [1080ft/s])
With the power these guns produce, a .22 is a much better idea than a .177 or .20. The smaller .177s and .20s do not carry the energy downrange as well as .22s and are far to easy to push over the sound barrier, causing a BOOM as well as poor accuracy.
Accuracy/Ammo
All the platforms are extremely accurate. In air rifles, the length of the barrel has very little to do with accuracy. The main deciding factor is ammo quality. Most Talons/TSSs will shoot 16 and 18 grain JSBs and 21gr Kodaiks very well. The Condor prefers Kodiaks, JSB Monsters and Euin Jins. Some Condors have been tuned to shoot the lighter JSBs, but it requires turning the power down considerably.
Accuracy
If your gun is shoting over 3/4 of an inch at 50yds, you have a problem. Personally, I have managed groups under 1/4 inch at 54yds. Some examples in the hands of experienced shooters can go sub moa at 100+ yds.
Here is an average 30yd group from my .22 (HW Barreled) Talon SS
Here is a dead bunny from 102yds taken with a slow moving 37grn EJ (750 fps in .25)
Upgrades
The AF rifles are very, very versatile. The most popular upgrades are new barrels, butt stocks, grips and shrouds.
Barrels: .25 – Insanely hard hittting and usable for everything from squirrels to hogs. Pellets range from 25grn JSBs to 70+grain slugs from Jerry Boyenga. To install a .25 barrel in any platform, no mods are needed and the gains are amazing . You can buy them from Anthony Anuzzi (aka Tony from Talontunes), Walt in Hawaii or MetalHead (I think?) [$180-$250]
Despite what you may think, the trajectory of a heavy .25 round is not that much worse than a faster .22 because of the superior ballistic coefficent of the larger projectile. They are also not as easily blown off course by wind. I really don’t want to explain this one further, so google ballistic coefficent.
Butt Stocks
The factory one sucks. It has to be replaced for a confortable fit. Personally, I think the WOKBUTT is the best fit and most reasonably priced. Contact Walkonking (aka Adam in SoCal, Big Gay WOK)[$55-$80]
Grips
Grips are a matter of personal preference. There are as many as you can imagine.
Shrouds
Shrouds are metal or carbon tubes that surround a barrel and have some sort of baffling system within them to break up noise. With the proper setup, a shroud can make an airgun almost dead silent. THEY ARE LEGAL because of a federal ruling stipulating that airguns are not firearms and therefore, the BATF statute outlawing silencers does not apply to them. But don’t push it with silencers that screw on, as they can be easily adapted to work on firearms. The issue is debated ad naseum on the yellow forum and the Airgun Advice forum. They can be purchased from Anthony Anuzzi, MetalHead, Yel01z06 and GTBJ [$125-$250]
Valves
Currently, there is one easily available upgrade valve produced by Selphb (Brad Selph) know as the Selph/Blodnob valve. It can produce insane amounts of power but requires a considerable amount of tuning. Not reccomended for beginners.[$168]
Filling
To fill an AF rifle, you need either a Hand Pump, a SCBA tank or a Scuba Diving tank to provide at least 3000 psi of pressure with wich to fill the tank.
Handpump- A handpump (also called a stirrup pump) resembles an oversized bicycle pump. To fill a 490cc AF tank, it takes a considerable amount of effort and sweat. If you are under 130lbs (like me) it is not easy to do. When the pump is nearing 2900psi, I can push my hands down on the handle and lift my feet off the ground for a second 😯 near the bottom of the stroke. A Hill Handpump runs around $300
SCBA Tank- The SCBA tank is a carbon wrapped aluminum tank commonly used by firefighters that is charged to 4500psi. A large one can fill an AF rifle 30-40 times. They are readily available, but finding a fill location isn’t so easy. Check fire departments, Scuba Shops and Welding Supply places (Sometimes they have compressors) A SCBA tank runs $400-$700
Scuba Tanks- Scuba tanks are Aluminum tanks (usually 80-88CF) charged to 3000psi for use in scuba diving. Because of their low operating pressures, they are not ideal for use in AF guns, but they work. I have my TSS tuned to shoot best on 2500psi, so I can get more fills out of a scuba tank than someone who has a gun tuned to 3000psi.[/img]
Maybe its just me but I cannot read a single post of yours without wondering eyes. either your posts are too long, boring or it could just be that avatar is hot as hell and I am a horndog! (going with the horndof theory myself dam shes hot!) sorry for interupting intellegent conversation with hooters carry on! lol
A longer barrel does not make a gun more accurate, it makes it more powerful and actually more quiet than one with a short barrel. If you buy a Condor you will not need to do anything for a .25 except put in a .25 barrel. The hi-flo tank comes with the Condor in .22 and it will work good with a .25 barrel also. Yeah the Airforce rifles are the most customizable airguns on the market.
You don’t have to buy a bird for falconry. In fact, I’ve been doing this for thirteen years now, and have only ever bought one. The rest have all been trapped out of the wild! The hardest part is getting the equipment to get started. Not always expensive, just time consuming to get that stuff. After that, there isn’t much expense other than gas money to drive to your hunting fields. The birds catch enough food to feed themselves, and you!!!
Anyway. . . back to airguns —
I want to lazer some big honkin pellets down range and poke holes in things, I mean critters! I’m thinkin I want to get the .22 caliber, unless I come across a smokin deal on the .25 somewhere. Also, it looks like the condor may be the way I want to go. Longer barrel means more accuracy — doesn’t it? I suppose it also makes it a little louder, but apparantly it can be quieted down with the shroud type thingy you guys are talkin about.
Also, how do I get this high pressure thing your talkin about for the .25 caliber? Can it be put on the .22 caliber and make it even MORE lazer like?! I’m really likin all these different things you can do with these rifles! Didn’t know they were that customizable!!!
Thanks again, and keep the info coming!!! Oh, and sorry, no videos. I don’t have a video camera. but there are LOTS of videos on youtube if ya type in falconry. Even one of a golden eagle catching a deer — type in
“golden eagle falconry”.
These are extremely accurate and powerfull rifles. this is the airgun version of a sniper rifle.
and its extremely modular , you can tailor it it any way you want for what ever reasons . target, small game, bigger game ,precision .carbine, long gun,
what ever floats your boat .
You do falconry ? Thats Kool as hell , was watching some videos recently
just awesome . I thought about getting into it but the birds are just a little out of my price range.
Hey post a video in the off topic or hunting section if ya have one , Im sure the guys here will love it .
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The AF rifles are all very similar:
TSS- 12″ Barrel, long frame w/ a short rail -Standard Valve
Talon- 18″ Barrel, Short frame/ rail- Standard Valve
Condor- 24in Barrel, Long frame, Long rail- HI-Flo valve
The whole short rail/ long rail /short frame/ long frame means nothing. It has no bearing on modifications other than with shrouds, so as a beginner, you can disregard it.
Comparative Pics: http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2508
{The “Talon” in the above link is an 18″ Talon, not the SS}
Performance/ Efficency
Each rifle can be changed to operate at the performance level of another.
Example : I have a TSS and I want it to shoot like a Condor
– Swap Valve, Hammer and Barrel- You now have a Condor (Basically)
Stock Power:
Talon- 30FPE out of the box (21grs @ ~800ft/s in .22) -40shots/fill
TSS- 24FPE out of the box (21grs @ ~735ft/s in .22) -40shots/fill
Condor- 65fpe out of the box(21grs@ ~1140ft/s in .22) 😯 -20 shots
As you can see, the Condor needs a very heavy pellet to stay under the sound barrier (Pellets become innacurate near the transsonic zone [1080ft/s])
With the power these guns produce, a .22 is a much better idea than a .177. The little .177s do not carry the energy downrange as well as .22s and are far to easy to push over the sound barrier.
Accuracy/Ammo
All the platforms are extremely accurate. In air rifles, the length of the barrel has very little to do with accuracy. The main deciding factor is ammo quality. Most Talons will shoot 16 and 18 grain JSBs and 21gr Kodaiks very well. The condor prefers Kodiaks, JSB Monsters and Euin Jins.
If your gun is shoting over 3/4 of an inch at 50yds, you have a problem. Some examples in the hands of experienced shooters can go sub moa at 100+ yds.
Here is a 30yd group from my .22 Talon SS
Here is a dead bunny from 102yds.
Upgrades
The AF rifles are very, very versatile. The most popular upgrades are new barrels, butt stocks, grips and shrouds.
Barrels: .25 – Insanely hard hittting and usable for everything from squirrels to hogs. Pellets range from 25grn JSBs to 70+grain slugs. To install a .25 barrel in any platform, no mods are needed and the gains are amazing . You can buy them from Anthony Anuzzi (aka Tony from Talontunes), Walt in Hawaii or MetalHead (I think?) [$180-$250]
Despite what you may think, the trajectory of a heavy .25 round is not that much worse than a faster .22 because of the superior ballistic coefficent of the larger projectile. I really don’t want to explain this one further, so google ballistic coefficent.
Butt Stocks
The factory one sucks. It has to be replaced for a confortable fit. Personally, I think the WOKBUTT is the best fit and most reasonably priced. Contact Walkonking (aka Adam in SoCal, Big Gay WOK)[$55-$80]
Grips
Grips are a matter of personal preference. There are as many as you can imagine.
Shrouds
Shrouds are metal or carbon tubes that surround a barrel and have some sort of baffling system within them to break up noise. With the proper setup, a shroud can make an airgun almost dead silent. THEY ARE LEGAL because of a federal ruling stipulating that airguns are not firearms and therefore, the BATF statute outlawing silencers does not apply to them. But don’t push it with silencers that screw on, as they can be easily adapted to work on firearms. The issue is debated ad naseum on the yellow forum and the Airgun Advice forum. They can be purchased from Anthony Anuzzi, MetalHead, Yel01z06 and GTBJ [$125-$250]
Valves
Currently, there is one easily available upgrade valve produced by Selphb (Brad Selph) know as the Selph/Blodnob valve. It can produce insane amounts of power but requires a considerable amount of tuning. Not reccomended for beginners.[$168]
Filling
To fill an AF rifle, you need either a Hand Pump, a SCBA tank or a Scuba Diving tank to provide at least 3000 psi of pressure with wich to fill the tank.
Handpump- A handpump (also called a stirrup pump) resembles an oversized bicycle pump. To fill a 490cc AF tank, it takes a considerable amount of effort and sweat. If you are under 130lbs (like me) it is not easy to do. When the pump is nearing 2900psi, I can push my hands down on the handle and lift my feet off the ground for a second 😯 near the bottom of the stroke. A Hill Handpump runs around $300
SCBA Tank- The SCBA tank is a carbon wrapped aluminum tank commonly used by firefighters that is charged to 4500psi. A large one can fill an AF rifle 30-40 times. They are readily available, but finding a fill location isn’t so easy. Check fire departments, Scuba Shops and Welding Supply places (Sometimes they have compressors) A SCBA tank runs $400-$700
Scuba Tanks- Scuba tanks are Aluminum tanks (usually 80-88CF) charged to 3000psi for use in scuba diving. Because of their low operating pressures, they are not ideal for use in AF guns, but they work. I have my TSS tuned to shoot best on 2500psi, so I can get more fills out of a scuba tank than someone who has a gun tuned to 3000psi.
O.K. this had to be an assignment, right? That’s an A+ for a beginners “Questions answered here” comparo. This writeup should be a sticky.