Microlite Bullpup kit for TalonP
Hi Guys, This is the thing I have been alluding too for a while now. It is a Drop in Bullpup Kit for the TalonP.
The Kit remounts the Barrel behind the hand grip,converts to a side cocking Action and adds baffling to quiet down the loud TalonP.
The Kits will also work on the Condor and Tss, but They are especially geared to the TalonP since it already has all the OEM requirements for The Bullpup conversion.
There is a detailed write up in the General Chat section, but Im posting some additional info here along with a Installation video for anyone who is interested.
Instruction Video
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Weather permitting, I’ll try to post some pics and results tomorrow. I’ll have to use a low power wheel setting but at least people can get a look at the base setup and some preliminary results. It may take a few weeks for Neil to get the LDC ready…he’s a very busy man, and people are in line in front of me, so I’ll wait my turn.
Hoot:
Any results Hoot? My kit and gun are on the way, I’ll have mine together this,weekend hopefully.
:hoot:
Weather permitting, I’ll try to post some pics and results tomorrow. I’ll have to use a low power wheel setting but at least people can get a look at the base setup and some preliminary results. It may take a few weeks for Neil to get the LDC ready…he’s a very busy man, and people are in line in front of me, so I’ll wait my turn.
Hoot:
That’s some very interesting things that you wrote, Hoot. I’m looking forward to seeing your numbers and finding out what that 1 3/4″ LDC does to the gun’s report. You certainly have to have 60+ fpe coming out of that setup.
Yeah, I’m set up for a kit from David but was hoping to find a used gun by now but no luck there. I ran across Doug on Facebook and he told me he knows many tricks for tuning these guns.
:hoot:
Yes….received the gun. Air pressure gauge was 1500 psi off…so I don’t think any chrony results will be valid until I get the replacement air gauge on and know what psi I’m shooting at.
Reference adding the 16″ barrel…it fits and works fine with the MicroLite kit. The muzzle sits 1.5″ back from the end of the TalonP frame. Unfortunately, the longer barrel does not permit the MicroLite sound suppression system to work at peak efficiency. It helps…but the longer barrel changes the air flow in his quieting design…it helps…but it’s not fully “neighbor friendly”, as the 12″ barrel might be.
Neil Clague is going to make me a 9″ X 1.75″ grub-screw attached slide-in LDC. By using this open shroud to open LDC tube method of attachment, there is no restriction as with an adapter, and I get absolute maximum shroud volume for expansion. I believe with the 12″ barrel, the MicroLite and Hagan/Donnyfl combo should be plenty quiet. But when I went with the longer barrel, the air flow/pressure dynamics changed quite a bit!
I blew the factory end cap off twice, and the Hagan adapter off once, and had to put in a longer/deeper grub screw to keep everything in place. Don’t let anyone tell you 4″ additional barrel length does not make a difference. The velocity and muzzle pressure is increased substantially, and no matter who you get your LDC from, Donny or Neil, I strongly recommend you go at least 8″ to 9″ in length! Personally, I’m also going with the 1.75″ diameter because the added cost was very minimal, and my neighbors have high powered hearing aids. The 1.5″ diameter, in the proper length, would probably do just fine, but I’m taking no chances!
When Neil’s LDC arrives, I’ll do a proper write up, with pics and readings. Then you can make an informed decision on what mods or changes you might like to try. Just give me a little more time, and I’ll possibly save you some money in the long run, and you’ll know ahead of time what results each change will produce in real time.
Hoot:
My stock is done. Now the install of the “kit”. Hope to have the TalonPuP in my hands by early next week.
Hoot:
Okay Hoot, Do you have the gun and any data for us yet?
:hoot:
Be sure to let us know what fps is achieved. That figure of 25 – 50 fps has been bandied about on this forum for years. I don’t know if anyone ever really checked it. I’ve heard the gain can be as little as 10 fps…I guess it depends on the caliber, gun, mods, setup, etc…
Hoot:
Ok, I decided to cut the .20 cal barrel back to 15 5/8″ so that it all fits inside the Talon-P frame. This allows about 1″ or so of space from the endcap. It’s very quiet like this, but I’ll try to make a modified endcap to quiet it some more: https://www.dropbox.com/s/feakwqdkjgo86er/20cal.jpg?dl=0 I also made a new valve stem for the .20-cal bbl. It’s bored 4.8mm (.189″) and also incorporates the 3x intake holes. I removed the hammer weight and I’ve been shooting 13.73 grain JSB Exacts at the 900 fps level. This gives 24.7 fpe at the muzzle. It still retains 10.82 fpe at 100 yards. At 50 yards it will only group 1″, no better. The 12″ .25 cal will group 3/4″ at 50 yards. Anyways, at 100 yards it will hit the end of a 16 oz can almost everytime. This is a far cry from the accuracy that a fellow in a video, recently made, where he shoots a .20 cal Edgun Lelya at 100 yards. I don’t remember what his targets were, but they were tiny by comparison.
Hoot wrote somewhere, recently, that for every inch of barrel length that a potential of 25-50 fps gain exists. The 12″ .25 cal barrel in this Talon-P Microlite Bullpup Kit gives 882 fps avg. w/ Baracudas or 878 fps with Grizzly pellets. If the 15 5/8″ barrel that’s now in this gun were .25 cal. then, if what Hoot says is true, at the minimum increase of 25 fps for each inch it would give 64.43 fpe w/ the Grizzly pellets. I find that interesting.
:hoot:
My stock is done. Now the install of the “kit”. Hope to have the TalonPuP in my hands by early next week.
Hoot:
Thanks, Dave! I took it out tonight and polished and opened the rear ports up a little. Now, even with the short barrel mount and short insert the greater amount of air is blowing the rubber washer rearwards and it’s hanging up in the front of the PW port (just like it did with the the long barrel mount.) I’m going to try to add o-rings to the rear barrel bushing to stop this. Here’s another image of this valve-stem: https://www.dropbox.com/s/athg1tgaaycju4l/polish-port.jpg?dl=0
*Edit* Thursday evening I turned a groove for an external o-ring on the rear barrel bushing. Friday evening I tested it and the PW was still traveling rearward with each shot. The rubber gasket hung up 2 or 3 times during my shooting, maybe 20 shots. However, the rubber gasket was now hanging up on it’s extreme outward area of the circumference. This was an improvement. So I took it all apart again and there was a lead dust flow on the inner portion of the barrel bushing. So I went to work and and fabricated, from a broken tool and a piece of handsaw blade, a custom boring bar for cutting the inner o-ring groove. I intentionally made it to use with the lathe in reverse, so I could easily see what I was doing while I worked. I tested this complete inner/outer o-ringed rear barrel bushing today, Saturday, and the gun now funtions perfectly with absolutely no PW rearward movement at all. Here’s some more boring pics to look at: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ln3snroc6msm30q/o-ring_tools.JPG?dl=0 and https://www.dropbox.com/s/lee6l50ee3agjwk/o-rings.JPG?dl=0 Also, I think that the gun is shooting even quieter now, too.
Great job on the valve stem. Very nice 😀
I don’t know how I got it in my head that the H&N Grizzly pellets were supposed to weigh 30 grains, but indeed they are supposed to weigh 31 grains. I just weighed 5 random pellets ..30.84, 31.1, 30.55, 31.175 and 31.1. I added 11 more Grizzly pellets and 16 of these weighed 496.34 grains. Divided by 16 these pellets came to an avg. weight of 31.02125 grains. That makes my friction theory complete rubbish. Anyways I certainly enjoyed the break in the severe cold weather, today. I shot some 50 yard groups with the H&N Grizzlies and they are grouping an inch or better. I’m looking forward to seeing what these can do through a longer barrel
I don’t think that the new valve-stem is leaking air during the shot. Right off I put a piece of tissue over the breech and fired the gun to check this. No movement there. However, that might not be the only test. I did hit the OEM valve-stem specifications very closely, even though my machining skills are very wanting, yet. The finish is full of grooves. i have a lot to learn, but at least I’ve finally jumped in and gotten my feet wet.
I’m guessing that the H&N Grizzly pellets have more bore contact (friction) than the H&N Baracudas do. Also, the manufacturer’s specified weight isn’t exactly on the mark with the Baracudas, so I suspect the same with the Grizzlies. I do believe earlier in this thread I shared my findings with the Baracuda weights, but maybe I posted that elsewhere. Anyways, to rehash, I used a very accurate type of scale to make measurements. An RCBS beam-type reloader’s scale. I pulled 5 random pellets from the Baracuda’s tin and weighed them. 30.65, 30.5, 31.1, 31.275, 31.11. Then I pulled 11 more out of the tin and weighed these 16 pellets together. That weight was 494.25. Divided by 16 the average weight was 30.927. Though this is not far off the claimed 31.02, it’s nevertheless off. My experience with measuring JSB pellets, in .22 and .177, is that the manufacturer’s claimed weight is spot on or almost exactly spot on. I’ve yet to weigh the Grizzly pellets.
No, I am using the OEM spring, hammer and hammer weight. Though I’m considering buying the various springs and hammers that I’ve been looking at, to experiment with. I really think, right now, that if I put the .20 cal., 22″ barrel back on this gun, I’d far exceed the 1088.5 fps average, on PW 8, that I was getting with the OEM valve-stem using a 22.005 grain avg. weight projectile.
:hoot:
Reference “Update #2”
The TalonP is advertised as a 50 fpe gun with the OEM full flow valve, and by your observation using 90 psi per shot, which gives the shooter 11 shots shooting from 3000 down to 2000 psi.
882 fps with 31.2gr Barracudas equals 53.5 fpe, so a modest increase in power is achieved. However, at 150 psi per shot, considering shooting from 3000 down to 2000 psi allows for 6.5 shots per fill. I could live with this if I were to obtain 60+ fpe, but the efficiency seems to have been severely impacted. Further, I’m puzzled by the loss of 4 fps when shooting a pellet 1.02gr lighter than the Barracudas.
It would seem you are “dumping” a lot of air that somehow is not being utilized to propel the pellet. Are you losing “blowby” air at the tophat/breech interface? Where’s all that extra air going? Or…is the duration of the tophat valve stem opening continuing to release air long after the pellet has left the muzzle? That would make sense to me.
Hoot:
PS: Are you using a heavier hammer weight and/or stronger spring? This could account for excess air dumping after the pellet exited the muzzle.
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:hoot:
16″ Barrel fits 1.5″ inside the shroud. Plenty of room for the endcap/ldc/adapter…whatever I decide to use.
MicroLite and Maddog stock are to die for. Flawless perfection! 27″ of perfect fit. 6 lbs and balance is perfect!
Hoot: