Never shot so slow & so good before
I’m still a rooky so I don’t feel bad telling on myself. I’ve shot aronnd 2,000 rounds thru my Condor, many different pellets, a .22×24″, a .177×12″ barrel, while making many adjustments to the TopHat. I went thru 3 or 4 AF pumps while getting the necessary? 3,000 PSI Fill. And now I’m down to what the pros on this forum have been saying all along i.e. ‘to fast ain’t no good’.
For the first time I filled to ONLY 2,300 PSI. I’ve been working on trying to slow down my H&N BARACUDA MATCH .22 x 21.14 grain pellets to a max of 990 FPS. I’ve screwed the TH from 0.090″ down to 0.060″ and back up to 0.070″ all the while screwing with the Power Wheel too. The PW set below 3 1/2 just messed up the FPS consistency and much higher gets supersonic. So, I settled on 4 full turns of the PW. My PW zeros at 10 so 4 full turns to 10 is where it wants to be. From setting the TH up to 0.070″ and shooting a few strings of 40 to 60 shots, I found it drifted a bit to more like 0.072″. So, still not achieving my goal of max 990 FPS, I reset TH to about 0.067″, left the PW at 4 full turns, and ONLY FILLED TO 2,300 PSI. My scope is zeroed for 46′ & 100 yd. and has been accurate for the 46′ thru most of my adjustments. So I went right to the 50 yard range where I expect to be on target using the 3rd mil dot above the crosshairs. There’s good shade there for the Chrony.
So, if you’re still withme, here’s the meat (string):
SHOT/FPS/Approx.PSI
01/856.68/2300
02/970.02/2282
03/968.24/2264
04/965.30/2246
05/976.44/2228
06/964.00/2210
07/972.60/2192
08/983.66/2174
09/990.02/2156
10/980.00/2136
11/979.52/2121
12/988.16/2103
13/998.92/2085
14/992.37/2067
15/994.98/2049
16/1002.98/2031
17/1000.41/2013
18/1002.98/1995
19/998.18/1977
20/1005.14/1959
21/997.52/1941
22/997.77/1923
23/996.62/1905
24/991.80/1887
25/985.82/1869
26/990.18/1851
27/985.34/1833
28/976.12/1815
29/972.05/1797
30/971.81/1779
31/971.11/1762
32/968.70/1744
33/962.39/1726
34/958.35/1708
35/953.52/1690
36/947.40/1672
37/941.80/1654
38/940.04/1636
39/935.39/1618
40/928.79/1600
There are some nice flat groups in this string and I’d never before shot with less than 1800 PSI so I wasn’t surprised as the last 10 shots began to drop more quickly.
My reason for this long post is my surprise how much tighter the last 2 groups of 5 were. As usual it was windy with 15 mph wind gusting to 21 mph.
My last 5 shots were side by side at 50 yd in gusty wind.
My usual has been 2-3″ groups at this range
All Replies
OK,
PSI=2300
PW=4
TH=0.070′
Configuration = PW, Spacer, Hammer Spring, Hammer. (28% decrease in hammer weight and add 2+ to the PW reading.
Shot FPS
1 820.23
2 808.77
3 794.02
4 755.52
5 837.36
6 839.22
7 816.52
8 904.77
9 922.14
10 908.16
11 904.50
12 893.15
13 908.78
14 1087.50
15 958.20
16 921.86
17 980.55
18 972.67
19 1087.79
20 1098.05 Dang, this is a light hammer?
21 1106.79
22 1092.40
23 1102.45
24 1091.62
25 1103.06
Ending PSI about 1910
I love numbers but these are to high.
Next String:
Fill=2100 PSI
PW=3
Shot FPS
1 893.86
2 887.39
3 902.34
4 854.14
5 910.90
6 827.80
7 1086.42
8 928.50
9 928.22
10 1073.32
11 920.32
12 1107.09
13 1099.35
14 1090.34
15 1105.37
16 1077.91
17 1109.22
18 1118.44
19 1112.79
20 1112.18
21 1111.16
22 1111.00
23 1119.27
24 1110.85
25 1110.03
26 1117.41
27 1109.02
28 1119.17
29 1124.47
30 1125.83
31 1118.65
32 1122.49
ENDING PSI = ABOUT 1590
Pab and Maw may be correct in when lightening the hammer it may be best to lighten the preload too.
With my lowest PSI of 1590 the FPS is still climbing!!!
That last 15 shots looks really FLAT but I need it about 150 FPS slower.
WOW, what a learning experience!
Fill 2400 PSI, PW=1, TH=0.070, Hammer Spacer moved to in front of the Spring which added about 0.135″ or more than 2 turns to the power wheel but reduced Hammer weight by 28%.
1st dribble (shot) out of the barrel at target range of 46 feet was 1 1/2′ to the right and 12 1/2″ LOW.
I swear it sounded like it dribbled down the barrel and the Chrony confirmed a hot 180.75 FPS.
That proved to be the beginning of a climb up a mountain.
Shot #2 = 623.90 FPS
I used to have a lot of patients but I used it up on ex’s and this is nowhere near what I expected so I upped the PW two turns to =3
Shot FPS
3 600.11
4 714.83
5 728.46
6 768.61
7 672.23
That’s slightly better but headed back down? So I upped the PW to =4
8 811.32
9 796.74
10 782.43
Only down about 150 PSI but I don’t want to have to pump to much at a time so I did a reFill to 2400 PSI and raised the PW to =5
New String
Shot FPS
1 737.34
2 799.11
3 800.96
4 844.73
5 765.55 ?What’s with the drop? I raised up the PW =6
6 844.96 Back on track, right?
7 1059.42 oops?
8 940.33
9 908.33
10 1067.45
11 1081.18
12 903.42
13 1068.30
14 1096.76
15 1098.45
Ending PSI = about 2190
OK, 2400 PSI seems to much and it doesn’t look flat so next
FILL to 2300 PSI and PW =4
Continued…..
Blue sky, 49F (9C), lite Wind from North at 12 MPH (19KPH), Wind Chill 44F (6C), Dew Point 27F (-3C), Barometer 30.31″ (1026mb) and steady, Humidity 43% (43%), RV and gear all loaded, and trip to range on HOLD!
My brother sent Mom some flowers that were to be delivered Friday but they got an email saying they were running behind.
EDIT 😳 NO MORE BASHING FED-EX. THE FLOWERS ARRIVED A DAY LATE BY UPS. THEY EVEN DOUBLED THE ORDER TO MAKE UP FOR THE FAILED DELIVERY FROM 1800FLOWERS. THEY DIDN’T EVEN KNOCK, JUST LEFT 2 BOXES, 4 DOZEN ROSES ON THE PORCH. Flowers were definitely fresher in one of the boxes.
You maybe better off getting some smaller and the right size spacers, I think it would probably work better without the spacer in, not setting down on the pw that’s one big spacer like pw 11 or so.
I’m feeling good about this modification. The re-arrangement with PW on 1 provides maybe 0.045″ (about 3/4 turn) less preload and a 28% lighter Hammer. And, I have 10+ full turns to adjust the PW up as needed. Hopefully I cam use some of that adjustment for heavier pellets. Also, like you said, working from 2,400 PSI I can turn down the pressure to help flatten the curve if needed.
Potential problems I’ll have to watch for are the following:
The Spacer sits a little off center to the end of the PW but is not overhanging off the end. Also, the ends of the Spring are not perfectly smooth and may cause some wear where it contacts the hammer. The Hammer looks like it’s covered with plastic on both ends. The Spacer that did contact the Hammer is wide an smooth compared to the end of the Spring. Time and testing will tell the tail.
We’re anticipating the possibility of frost tonight and tomorrow night and the wind continues to be strong and gusty to about 30 MPH. I can deal with the cold and the wind as I have all winter. For now I mostly need to adjust the pellet speed down and get the flat bathtub curve. Hopefully tomorrow will be clear enough to set up the Chrony. I don’t like to get it wet as I have Pyramyd Air’s foam packing rings around the base to the LED Light support rods to block out Sun light from giving error readings. And, the new support rods are a bit soft so I have clamped 2 large paint stirrers clamped across them to maintain their separation alignment. I works a lot better than it did.
God willing I’ll have some interesting results tomorrow evening.
I’m going to take my Hill pump in case the 1st 10 shots are way off. But, being Mother’s Day, I’ve got to get Mom to the restaurant before they sell out the good stuff.
Sounding good so far Lurker. That spacer was always there, just in the form of a weight.Now that weight is gone, So it definitely will be shooting weaker. .(though as you say, not snugging down on the pw will have added a little more, but enough to make it sound as loud as before!? The chrony will reveal….!)
I doubt you’ll see much wear and tear with the spring on hammer,though my main spring does have the ends ground flat…
Definitely take a means to refill with you!
I usually shoot strings of 20. First few shots tell you if you are in the ballpark and then go from there.
Edit- 😆 The more I am waking up this morning and re reading your post, all the points I thought were unclear, are actually very clear, kinda making my reply nonsensical…..
Looks like you are totally on top of the situation. You’ve ended up with a little less preload at pw 1 and 28% less hammer weight.
Cool.
Holy crap, I need more coffee……. 😳
Pab, I got it done. Learning all the time…The Spacer doesn’t seat down on the PW like the Spring does and the best I could measure with these old eyes is it added about 0.135″ to the preload. I tried to measure the PW movement and came up with 2 full turns = about 0.124″. So, I set the PW to 2 instead of 4 and dry fired a few times. Again, my old assisted ears determined the sound to be much louder than with PW = 9 and NO Spacer. I turned it down to 1 and it was still louder. Then again, I’m working with power assisted ears and heavy optically assisted eyes. Then too, I put some fresh divers silicone on the o-rings during this rebuild and there’s no telling if I’ve picked up more breech/hammer/spring/spacer/PW slap with the newly rearranged parts.
I’m feeling good about this modification. The re-arrangement with PW on 1 provides maybe 0.045″ (about 3/4 turn) less preload and a 28% lighter Hammer. And, I have 10+ full turns to adjust the PW up as needed. Hopefully I cam use some of that adjustment for heavier pellets. Also, like you said, working from 2,400 PSI I can turn down the pressure to help flatten the curve if needed.
Potential problems I’ll have to watch for are the following:
The Spacer sits a little off center to the end of the PW but is not overhanging off the end. Also, the ends of the Spring are not perfectly smooth and may cause some wear where it contacts the hammer. The Hammer looks like it’s covered with plastic on both ends. The Spacer that did contact the Hammer is wide an smooth compared to the end of the Spring. Time and testing will tell the tail.
We’re anticipating the possibility of frost tonight and tomorrow night and the wind continues to be strong and gusty to about 30 MPH. I can deal with the cold and the wind as I have all winter. For now I mostly need to adjust the pellet speed down and get the flat bathtub curve. Hopefully tomorrow will be clear enough to set up the Chrony. I don’t like to get it wet as I have Pyramyd Air’s foam packing rings around the base to the LED Light support rods to block out Sun light from giving error readings. And, the new support rods are a bit soft so I have clamped 2 large paint stirrers clamped across them to maintain their separation alignment. I works a lot better than it did.
God willing I’ll have some interesting results tomorrow evening.
I’m going to take my Hill pump in case the 1st 10 shots are way off. But, being Mother’s Day, I’ve got to get Mom to the restaurant before they sell out the good stuff.
I was mulling around your statement about a faster hammer and I had the notion to put the Hammer spacer in between the spring and the PW. That would add back the spring tension lost by removing the spacer weight and make the hammer even faster. I didn’t do it as I want to try what you suggested.
Thanks all for the help, I’ll get back with the results as soon as I get a chance to shoot and keep my Chrony dry.
Yes, good idea to put the hammer weight back in as a spacer to keep original preload set.
OK Pab, I pulled the Hammer Spacer Weigh out (it weighted 19.4 grams) leaving me with the spring and the 48.7 gram Hammer. I re-set the PW to 9 full turns and the TH to 0.070″. I dry fired a few times in doors and it sounds quieter. Neighbors are to close for me to shoot at home but I did put 1 an inch deep in an old 2×4. I had filled to 2500 PSI so I’ll blow off a couple more dry fires and then refill to 2400. I might get to the range tomorrow, Saturday, and try to get off 20 or so between the showers.
I was mulling around your statement about a faster hammer and I had the notion to put the Hammer spacer in between the spring and the PW. That would add back the spring tension lost by removing the spacer weight and make the hammer even faster. I didn’t do it as I want to try what you suggested.
Thanks all for the help, I’ll get back with the results as soon as I get a chance to shoot and keep my Chrony dry.
A month ago I had a fairly consistent FPS string with TH=0.069, PW=6, and Fill PSI=2440-1800 but with to high a FPS. It was all downhill from 1076-997 for 35 shots with Standard Deviation of 24.9.
I’d leave the th at about 0.070 which seems to be the general consensus.
PW and fill pressure you will have to play with. A faster hammer always seems to give more consistancy(speed overcomes frame irregularitys, lube etc) so start the PW at 9 or so, lets say 2400 psi fill. Those results will tell you what you need to adjust. Too slow, keep the pressure the same and up the pw. Not flat enough string? Try to lower pressure a bit.
The trick is, is getting the balance just right to be cracking the valve open just enough, at the right pressure, to get a good long consistant string. If you’ve found the sweet spot, as pressure drops through firing, the valve opens a little more, letting a little more air out and thus keeping the fps consistant and getting a good flat string. Each valve/barrel is different as you know, so there is no presets you can go to…
Pab, OK, that sounds interesting. 1st I have the issue of the valve TH being set to low at 0.065″ so I have to adjust that back up. It did work good with the present stock hammer while set at 0.067″ so should I set it back there or higher? Also, I’ll be pulling the extra hammer weight and turning the PW up. I figure the PW setting will at least have to make up for the gap left by removing the stock extra weight. Then the remaining hammer will have less inertia as it strikes the breech/TH. What range of setting would you suggest starting at for the TH and the PW?
A month ago I had a fairly consistent FPS string with TH=0.069, PW=6, and Fill PSI=2440-1800 but with to high a FPS. It was all downhill from 1076-997 for 35 shots with Standard Deviation of 24.9.
.
Lurker’, as you stated before, turning the powerwheel down too low messes up consistancy, so you gotta keep that up at 4. This is pushing too much force on the valve and giving you too fast fps. You have overcome this by less fill pressure. This works of course, but can compromise shot count.
If you lighten the hammer you have alot more room to play with pw settings and can put a little more in the tank and get a longer, consistant string.
Lighter hammer will crack that valve open less each shot, keep the fps down, use less air per shot and give a smoother firing cycle.
That one string is really good, just fill to 2275 and shoot it down till the groups drop off, wait until a nice day, they should all shoot poa.
aint it fun, like was said dont forget to go kill some stuff or have some fun casual shooting and reap the rewards of your testing.
Maw, I got back out Wednesday and it was a beautiful day except the SW wind of 30 MPH and gusts to 38 MPH. Unfortunately, I made a slight change to 0.065 on the TH. This time it started out slower but still went up to a high of 1007 FPS then back down with shot 40 at 643 FPS. My groups never did tighten up as the FPS came down. I have a sleve + 1/2 of the 21.14 match pellets so I’ve got to get this right.
Pab, I don’t understand how removing the hammer weight would help but I do need to slow these pellets down. When I lower the PW to 3 1/2 or less I get more erratic speeds. I’m quessing my Condor’s sweet spot is with the TH at 0.067 and PW 4. Then when the FPS dropped to 947-928 the group really tightened. I’m thinking maybe a Talon valve stem, if it is the same OD as the Condor, might get the max speeds down. Do you think removing the hammer weight will bring the speed down and still be as consistent?
Here are the 2 days strings with the TH changed from 0.067 to 0.065″
and attempting to line up the approx. PSI questimations:
5/3 TH 0.065″….5/5 TH 0.067″
PSI…FPS……….FPS……PSI
2330 751.86…….
2315 874.19…….
2299 871.67…..856.68 2300
2284 890.59…..970.02 2282
2268 895.86…..968.24 2264
2253 905.85…..965.30 2246
2238 920.74…….
2222 909.87…..976.44 2228
2207 645.49…..964.00 2210
2192 930.39…..972.60 2192
2176 664.01…..983.66 2174
2161 error…….990.02 2156
2145 error…….
2130 975.73…..980.00 2136
2115 973.14…..979.52 2121
2099 963.00…..988.16 2103
2084 988.80…..998.92 2085
2068 986.79…..992.37 2067
2053 999.83…..994.98 2049
2038 1002.73….1002.98 2031
2022 error…….
2007 847.33….1000.41 2013
1992 error……1002.98 1995
1976 1007.99…..998.18 1977
1961 1005.73….1005.14 1959
1945 1001.73…..997.52 1941
1930 988.40…..997.77 1923
1915 995.53…….
1899 989.53…..996.62 1905
1884 987.35…..991.80 1887
1868 983.74…..985.82 1869
1853 971.19…..990.18 1851
1838 961.39…..985.34 1833
1822 654.57…..976.12 1815
1807 647.63…….
1792 649.26…..972.05 1797
1776 618.01…..971.81 1779
1761 637.57…..971.11 1762
1745 632.94…..968.70 1744
1730 634.86…..962.39 1726
………………….958.35 1708
………………….953.52 1690
………………….947.40 1672
………………….941.80 1654
………………….940.04 1636
………………….935.39 1618
………………….928.79 1600
The smaller TH setting makes a bigger difference at lower
pressures. In the case above it took a dive below 1868 PSI.
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Try pw 0 and 1900 lbs.