Non-Airgun Projectiles
Was reading in the Condor forum and saw a discussion on this.
I’ve often wondered about this. What are some of the issues to consider?
I’m sure that rate of twist is an issue. But besides that, can a jacketed projectile be used effectively or are we just talking about cast bullets.
Take .22 for instance. Would you need a 1:12 twist or would 1:7 be better?
Would the projectile need some type of conical base like the Minie Ball to seal up like a pellet?
I would love to be able to cast lead bullets to use in a small caliber air rifle.
I’m sure there is a lot I haven’t considered. Feel free to contribute.
Thanks,
Paul
All Replies
Roachcreek,
I don’t even pretend to understand it all! .223 PBs end up needing 1 in 7 or 9 twist in some tactical guns despite going 3000+ fps but the 9 ring slug which is heavier and at least as long does just fine with a 1 in 16 barrel at 700+ fps. Obviously there is more than just weight or length at work…
Jerry,
I guess I am using PB technology here, and trying to apply it to air rifles, fthe 223 used to be primaily a 1in12 barreled gun, when folks wanted to use those 69 grain bullets they had to go to a faster twist. I had a 22-250 Ackley improved, with a 1-12 twist, it would throw 55 grain bullets 4000 FPS, but still could not stabalize the 69 grainers. I am of course talking about bolt guns, heavy bullets were just one of the reasons the m16 made the trasition. My Corbin swaged bullets liked to come apart in the 1-9 and 1-7 twist barrels, being as I was a hnter and not a paper puncher I always prefered the 223 to wear a 1-12 twist barrel.
45-70’s used 1-22 inch twists for years, first one I used was a Douglas barrel, but when I wanted to use the really heavy bullets I had to go to a 1-16 inch twist. Barring that it would have meant a whole lot more veloctiy, which out of the Borschardt with black powder was not going to happen. The writers in the Blackpowder magazines also claimed that length of bullets was an issue.
I just assumed that is why you choose that short design, but you know what happens when you assume.
Roachcreek
I don’t think we disagree Roachcreek, I just didn’t mention that there are a number of ways to destroy a mold. An oversight. Assuming you treat them well they will last a long time. My point was more applicable to commercial work as you really can just wear the things out for useful work. The cavities don’t wear but everything else sure does and when it gets to every pour needing the mold to be fiddled with, than it’s not a production mold anymore. Accelerate the wear through mis-use and it won’t even be a personal use mold for long…
Like Tofazfou pointed out, the .25 ACP mold works well for his buddy’s gun. There are no absolutes as that combination works but the same design (around longer than AF guns) has not been reported to work with the AF guns (as far as I know).
Regarding design: What works out of what gun (taking into account velocity, twist and length) is less a mathematical certainty than rules of thumb with exceptions. I think mere length of the slug as a measure of stability vs. a twist rate is inadequate. My evidence would be the 9 ring slugs that work great out of LW barrels in Condors and those things are 3/4″ long! Obviously they either don’t have the aerodynamic properties that lead to instability or they also have stabalizing properties that offset the forces of inbalance… I know it isn’t high velocity that stabalizes them as they work well below what anyone would call high velocity. Then again, there is a cutoff velocity somewhere as you can’t use them out of a 12″ barrel….
Heavy bullets require fast twists, lacking the fast twist, you need either a hell of a lot of velocity, which we will never have, or that heavy bullet needs to be very short, ie a wadcutter.
Which is why Jerry’s successful bullet looks like a wadcutter.
And what you get is a very accurate single shot .25 auto shooting lead waddcutters.
Roachcreek
I agree with Jerry and Roachcreek 100% about casting bullets.
My buddy has a very powerful .25 cal/130 fpe BEAUMONT air rifle. It is based off of the DAYSTATE air gun with the internals HEAVILY massaged. He cast .251 caliber 50 sumthin grain bullets with great success. Go to http://www.midwayusa.com and search for the selection of .25 cal molds. Yes, it is a mold for the .25 cal powder burner pistol which is the puny .25 ACP. But the bullets work in an air gun and he has killed a ton of jackrabbits at far distances and killed a couple of yotes with it.
Well I appreciate you guys taking the time to respond and help me learn.
Based on what has been discussed thus far, I see no reason to reinvent the wheel but I do want to make sure I understand correctly.
The .25 Condor barrels from Tony will shoot both pellets and Jerry’s slugs well. If that’s the case then it’s the best of both worlds. I didn’t realize that there was something between a pellet and powder burner projectile but these remind me of .38 wad cutters.
So a .25 Condor barrel and a Condor tank, a good supply of pellets and Jerry’s slugs. And finding someone to make me a mold. That’s ultimately what I would like to do is some “load” development.
I have noticed that there are other .25 cast bullets used in different rifles. Why the different design? Is it a matter of twist, choke or are these rifles/barrels made specifically for the bullet and not for a pellet.
http://www.adventuresinairguns.com/caliber-grain-hollow-point-bullets-p-242.html
I have watched this and other threads, about casting lead slugs for airgun barrels and rebarreling to shoot lead slugs.
My first try at that was at age 14 when I tired to make a mould out of my Crosman 101 barrel so I could shoot heavy slugs from my crosman 150 at Bobcats and penetrate their skulls that my Airedale treed in central Oregon.
And for the next 4 decades I cast bullets, probably helped me with the arthritis I have now, casting those big 45 caliber slugs for the Sharps rifles I competed with at 1000 yards. I also swaged jacketed bullets with the Dave Corbin set up for over 25 years.
I loved casting, I had more than 30 molds when I quit doing it. With the exception of a 22 core mold for the swaging operation, 30 caliiber was the smallest I cast, the small ones and the ones that required a plug, like hollow based and hollowpoint were some of the hardest to cast, it is hard to keep that plug the same temp as the mold. that is why you see wrinkles on the nose of hollowpoint slugs, and a good caster will not shoot wrinkled bullets, or at least I didn’t, but that was just me.
I disagree with Jerry on one point, or perhaps he just did delve into it, it is really easy to fuck up a good mold thru improper casting techinique if your new at this game. Read everything you can find on casting and take care of those molds.
It is fun and rewarding to make your own bullets, I can’t describe the joy that I had when I killed my first cast bullet elk with a bullet I cast with solar panels and batteries and a lee pot. Yeah dupicate that feat guys. If I buy a big bore I will buy more molds and a camp stove and a led pot and ladle, far better than a electric pot, and makes better heavy slugs IMO.
I killed a lot of deer with cast bullets and three elk, one of which was with a paper patched bullet. On paper patches, I had a brass stencil for making the paper jackets and special paper, Dave Gullo at Buffalo arms in Idaho sells that, cigerrette papers make great joints, but they do not make paper patches, believe me I tried many a night under gas lights to get that to work. Nei\ther does onion skin, but the regulartyping paper comes the closest.
Bottom line, the naked cast bullet is far easier to do.
Also have adequate ventilation, I can’t stress that enough, also good welders gloves and eye protection.
In the end, I hope it does work for you guys, but personally, I am damn glad pellets are cheap, I would never attempt to cast what I can buy at the prices they charge for EJ’s or what Jerry has proved to work on his dollar.
Never
Roachcreek
I saw this post earlier and kinda avoided it because it will dredge up a bunch of stuff I’ve gone over a million times… And, a lot of mis-information.
Just to avoid one thing, we don’t sell molds nor is a copy of our .25 mold design available. You could always ask some company to make a copy but we selling or commisioning molds.
1. Forget copper jackets. Airguns don’t derive any benefit fom copper jackets and ballistic tips etc.
2. If you’re going to cast for a .25 or .22, you need a gun to take advantage of the heavier slug or there’s no point. Standard pellets are matched very well to lower powered airguns and perform far better than mis-matched slugs. A standard condor with a .25 barrel and set to max power is probably OK with the 6 or 7 rings but won’t see as much performance as a Talon Tunes gun.
3. Casting isn’t a difficult thing to do but it isn’t easy or cheap either, especially when you ramp up production to multiple designs or large numbers. You can buy a nice cheap lead pot for limited use but if you really get into large numbers, you”l do that a couple times and then buy a pot that costs 5 times as much… Molds last forever…provided they get light duty, cast tens of thousands of slugs and you’ll see wear in hinge pins, alignment pins and anything else that can wear. Oh, the gear piles up like it does for anything else…. Make space for a permanent station or plan on set-up and tear down/storage time.
4. Other than .308, most cheap molds are pistol designs. They are slugs designed for guns made to be accurate as far as you can throw a spare tire. Some work well enough in air rifles but most never have any groups posted. Some will reach out to 100 yards and do OK (don’t get me wrong) but a LOT of the designs you will try won’t work.
5. Get a full set of sizers. The difference between .308 and .310 can be HUGE as far as accuracy goes…oh, it depends on the barrel type and sometimes a particular barrel as well. Be patient.
Enjoy!
For a winter project, I am going to buy a .224″ bore, 1 in 16″ twist, non choked RF or CF barrel blank. I plan on having it fitted to my .25 cal long version Edgun Matador. I know that it will shoot .25 cal 35.8 grain Einjins at 940 fps.
I plan on using 30-44 grain solid lead non jacketed RF and CF bullets in it. I hope to be able to push them in the 900 fps to 1000 fps range. .22 RF match rifles shoot sub sonic match rounds at 950 fps to 1050 fps and are very accurate.
I have read, and been told, that it can’t be done. An air rifle doesn’t have the power 😯 you need to burn powder, the twist rates are all wrong yada yada yada.
I will spend a few hundred dollars on a good barrel, I can get the solid lead cast bullets, if it doesn’t work out, at least I will know first hand.
To me, a good cast bullet fired from a good barrel at 950 fps wouldn’t know if it was compressed air or burning powder pushing it down the barrel.
I wouldn’t mind getting 3/8″-1/2″ 100 yards groups!
Actually what I meant was use a Custom .25 caliber barrel for the Airforce condor.
Click the Red Banner @ top o the page : Talon Tunes .25 caliber barrel. Non-choked barrels are getting good results/reviews, you may want to try a custom non-choked .25cal barrel?
Maybe contact “‘Jerry”‘ of Jerry’s Surefire .25 Slugs and he can put you in contact with a cast lead mold maker? I don’t cast bullets, so don’t know who to get in touch with ❓
This is Jerry’s post, Where he sells his “SureFire .25 Slugs” http://www.talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3929&highlight=jerry Lots a good info here and you may want to try some of his “SureFire .25 Slugs” before you jump in too deep?
Looks like Jerry recommends a beefed up air valve for his Surefire .25 Slugs, so just a drop in .25 cal barrel won’t do! My bad?????
Sam 💡
I just found a page concerning twist rates by caliber and bullet weight. Since we’re dealing with lower velocities, will bullet weight make a difference?
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/page11.html
Looks like .25 caliber can run with 55 grain bullets in a 1:22 twist all the way up to 173 grain in a 1:7.
Next would be learning the fine art of casting lead bullets.
first, buy the molds and try casting some lead air gun bullets. If you can cast good bullets, you can sell all you can make.
Sam 🙂
Who makes a drop in for cast projectiles?
I can’t wait to start casting. I’m also planning on casting for my powder burners as well.
I realize I’m really ignorant about all this and I appreciate all the help.
Thanks,
Paul
Least cost, would be with a drop in .25 caliber barrel, and a set of molds for the cast bullets, you want to use. Above the .25cal, you’ll need a custom breech and air valve + a barrel?
Next would be learning the fine art of casting lead bullets.
first, buy the molds and try casting some lead air gun bullets. If you can cast good bullets, you can sell all you can make.
Sam 🙂
The fact that it is powered by air makes it slower. I believe the very fastest air can push a projectile is somewhere near 1400fps. Air just can’t move faster.
Well that makes sense. So the starting place is .25 caliber and above with cast lead bullets.
I’m not familiar with .25 caliber and twist rates but is it safe to assume that because a projectile is powered by air, it should be on the slower side or is that simply a function of the profile of the projectile?
My motivation? I’m cheap. I’d love to have a rifle that I could successfully cast for, catch my practice rounds in a trap and recast. Plus it would be fun.
Seems to me that these Air Force rifles would be a good platform since a barrel/bottle swap is so simple.
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Jerry,
Yeah, I know what you mean, seems there was a formula for that, with lenght and orgive, caliber and such, but it is one of those things my 61 year old brain did not retain.
I am sure all those concussions helped too. 😕
I am planning on getting a 25 barrel soon and will want to get some of those slugs you make.
But seems most of this months airgun funds went to fixing the Allroad once again.
Enjoy
Roachcreek