pellet sorting tool
hey guys i might be wasting my time but im gonna try something that might help sorting my 22 cal pellets on there head size, i have a good friend that has some pretty accurate CNC machines that hes gonna drill some holes in some 1/4 inch plate aluminum and then end mill sizes 4.49 thru 5.55 mm and they should be spot on,im hoping i will be able to use as a go or no go gauge for pellet sorting,,has anyone done this?
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Yes I think this could be a factor too but unfortunately I cant yet find any larger head size pellets with the smaller pin punch and thicker skirts to prove or disprove this. The first tin in my vid of 5.49mm pellets is actually an old 2000 batch and the 5.50mm tin beside it is a new 2013 batch. Both were made in the smaller pin punch die. The rest are from large pin dies ranging from 2010 to 2013 batches. My point here is they are producing from both large and small pin dies but it seems that the small pin dies are throwing smaller head pellets. I still cant confirm this but it is my findings from the batches Ive tested so far.
I have tried resizing pellets, didn’t work for me either. I bought a few pellet sizing setups from air gun shops that offered them. No luck with them after I tried the products. I have 10-12 Lee sizing dies that cover 22 and 25 calibers in .001 steps. I couldn’t see a before and after difference between my weigh sorted sized and un sized pellets when I shot them at 100 yards.
Yes, pushing a pellet thru a resizing die sizes both the head and skirt. From what I have read, the skirt gets blown out to grove diameter during firing.
I think that you are right about the original head size making the difference in accuracy and that, if you resize a pellet, the wider resized down head at least doesn’t help and it could cause more problems.
The thing that has me really puzzled about the pellet head size is that the BSA 25 cal barrels that I have fitted to my Matadors shoot better than the stock LW barrels that came with the gun. I have fewer fliers with them. The BSA barrels are hammer forged and are actually .243”. They really resize the head and the skirt of the pellet but are still more accurate.
The difference of a 25 cal JSB that has been pushed thru a 25 cal Matador barrel and one that has been pushed thru a 25 cal BSA barrel is easily seen when viewed thru a 5X jewelers loupe. The BSA pellets have deeper grooves cut in the head but, the grooves are more rounded and look smoother compared to the stock LW barrel.
Your thoughts please.
Old goat: There is a second factor in this equation. Ed has custom made a barrel to shoot this 18.13gr pellet extremely well out past 100 meters.. Getting this performance seems to have produced a very pellet head size fussy barrel.
I say this because I have tested many barrels from both Lothar Walther (German made not the crappy USA made ones) and also BSA barrels and they will shoot all these head sizes well to 100m but further than 100 meters and the custom Edgun barrel with correct pellet size will leave all other brands tested in its dust.. The accuracy of the Edgun barrel at 150 meters is unrivalled by all other less fussy barrels ive tested.
The size dose matter, more or less. 🙂
I have tested different head sizes (JSB 18.1) on accuracy at 50 yards. As WM’s, my R3 .22 likes 5.50 mm the most, compared with 5.46, 5.47, 5.48 mm.
http://www.talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25786
The 5.49 and 5.51 mm heads are okay. It is tedious and time consuming on measuring size. Now I only measure ~30 pellets from a new tin and keep the good tins. The “bad” tins are used for trimming tree branches and chrony.
JSB (from PA) recently changed the spec of .25 Kings. My R3 doesn’t like it at all. I don’t know if AA keeps the same spec on .25.
doing this for now
It’s barrel specific because most of the barrels are unique. I think the CZ hammer forged barrels on the Crickets will tend to be much more consistent. One would hope that the match level LW barrels are that way but I keep hearing there are subtle differences. The standard LW chocked barrels on the AF guns are all over the place on measurements. I am pursuing cast bullets in a custom gun with a custom barrel for the very high level of accuracy and we may only be talking about less than 1/4″ difference at say 50 yards.
That’s why I stay in the hunting/pesting end of the hobby with diablo pellets. To achieve the level of accuracy that Wingman and the FT guys want takes a lot of work and time.
Has there ever been a comment about what head size the barrels are designed to shoot best ??
I don´t think it works that way, sorry. Whatever pellet size your friends R3 prefers the same size doesn´t have to work for your R3 barrel.
Why they all like different size ? I quess it´s the tolerances in manufacturing – after all we´re talking 1/100 of millimeters here.
To be able to determine what size your gun likes you need to size and sort pellets and then test shoot different groups with different size pellets (i´d do 20 shot groups/size, minimum) at longer range like 50 meters/yards.
Unfortunately there´s no way around it and this is part of the fun/curse of airgunning. Actually very much a part of Rimfire shooting too.
Can anyone advise of what head size most Edgun’s prefer or is it all over the place ?? I know WM says his R3 is definitely a 5.49-5.50 gun. Can anyone else add their guns favorite head size.
Has there ever been a comment about what head size the barrels are designed to shoot best ??
I have just got in another batch of pellets so I’m about to start comparing but and doing some other comparisons first and have noticed the depression depth in the rear, even within a single tin is quite variable. I have read of WingmanNZ saying that one depth range tended to be more suited to his gun than another as a result of them producing the right head sizes for him when measured. Coming from years of an aviation hobby I know that weight and balance is a huge factor in stability and have not seen this discussed in spiraling talk also described as instability. Could this weight and balance be a factor as well as head size. ???
Wingman; thanks for the video and info!
I have tried resizing pellets, didn’t work for me either. I bought a few pellet sizing setups from air gun shops that offered them. No luck with them after I tried the products. I have 10-12 Lee sizing dies that cover 22 and 25 calibers in .001 steps. I couldn’t see a before and after difference between my weigh sorted sized and un sized pellets when I shot them at 100 yards.
Yes, pushing a pellet thru a resizing die sizes both the head and skirt. From what I have read, the skirt gets blown out to grove diameter during firing.
I think that you are right about the original head size making the difference in accuracy and that, if you resize a pellet, the wider resized down head at least doesn’t help and it could cause more problems.
The thing that has me really puzzled about the pellet head size is that the BSA 25 cal barrels that I have fitted to my Matadors shoot better than the stock LW barrels that came with the gun. I have fewer fliers with them. The BSA barrels are hammer forged and are actually .243”. They really resize the head and the skirt of the pellet but are still more accurate.
The difference of a 25 cal JSB that has been pushed thru a 25 cal Matador barrel and one that has been pushed thru a 25 cal BSA barrel is easily seen when viewed thru a 5X jewelers loupe. The BSA pellets have deeper grooves cut in the head but, the grooves are more rounded and look smoother compared to the stock LW barrel.
Your thoughts please.
I have supposedly certified Starrett and Mitutoyo digital read out calipers. The Starrett is certified out to .0001, the Mitutoyo is certified out to .oooo5. I could be wrong on the Mitutoyo, I know that it is supposed to be more accurate than the Starrett. I have a .50000” “supposedly” gauge block to check them with. I know that checking them on my block is far less accurate than having them checked and certified.
Instead of seeing where the measurement is when you can first pick the pellet up, I have the caliper opened up slightly smaller than the head size, place the pellet in the opening and then slowly open the caliper up until the pellets head drops thru the caliper. I find it very tedious to check 500 pellets doing this.
Doing this, my initial results looked promising then cold weather hit and I just couldn’t force myself to go back to the range.
I do have an air gauge setup coming. It has 2 different gauges and I will be able to test and sort 25 and 30 cal pellets head sizes. The guy that is going to send me this says that he can check and sort head sizes on 500 pellets in an hour.
I want to come up with the best pellet/gun combo for this years AOA Extreme Bench Rest shoot and not make myself look too stupid while I compete!
I really don’t care where I finish as long as I finish in front of the first FX gun!
PS: You talk funny! 😆
Heres a quick vid I’ve put together to show its pellet head size not speed that causes unstable pellets in the Edgun R3.
Edgun R3 barrels twist rate was designed to shoot the JSB 18.13gr .22 pellet at velocities between 900 and 950fps, if your pellet is spiralling in this speed range then you need to find the head size that YOUR barrel prefers not reduce the velocity if you want to get the best accuracy from your gun. Mine likes the 5.49mm – 5.50mm pellets but this doesn’t mean yours will act the same.. Every barrel and choke is slightly different.
I can actually shoot the 5.49-5.50mm pellets to over 1000fps and the still fly true.
Unfortunately I have “misplaced” my tool that resizes the larger pellet heads to 5.50mm as I was going to do that on cam and show you all that the pellet will still spiral even after resizing.. I have a look for it over the next few days and add another vid if I can find it.
Another note: My verniers are Japanese made Mitutoyo’s, they are expensive and very accurate and they are re-calibrated every 6 months as this is a requirement for aviation measuring tools. These have been tested against other far more accurate measuring devices and they are spot on.
Most verniers you can buy are crap and they will give you a different measurement every time you use them. If you intend to measure pellets this way you need to spend the money on a good set and have them calibrated regularly.
The method I use to measure head size is to sit the pellet on a flat surface and very slowly start closing the jaws up on the pellets head. by moving the vernier up and down very slightly you will see when the jaws make first contact with the pellet as it will lift the pellet slightly of the surface then drop it again.. stop here, that is your head size. Don’t make the mistake of squeezing the pellets sharp shoulder between the jaws too hard as you will get an incorrect reading as the thin soft lead damages very easily.
Verniers are by far not the best and most accurate way to measure pellet head sizes but they will do the job for the air gunners out there that don’t want to spend the big dollars on air gauges etc. They are certainly a sufficient tool to determine which head size you should be feeding your rifle and get you on the right track to eliminating unstable spiralling pellets and shooting better groups.
Please remember this is info that refers specifically to the EDgun R3 and R3M barrels, If you have the same problem with another brand of gun you will first need to establish what twist rate it has to determine which pellet weight and velocity to use before finding the head size it will perform the best with. All brands of barrel will have a different window of stability with a certain pellet at a certain speed.
Not to state the obvious but you already own a tool of this nature.. push them through you R3M mags.. you wouldnt want to size the skirt any smaller than the mag or they might fall out..
I must stress the point that you dont want to resize the heads.. you only want to measure them. If you resize a larger head to the size your barrel prefers the resized pellet will still spiral..
That is what I am doing, no touch on the heads and compressing the skirts for consistency but not as far as the Mags do. Very precise approach !! I had the tool made of hard steel for “0” wear and did not want to use my irreplaceable aluminum magazines for tools in this case. There seems to not be any additional mags available in the US ??
I have started with .25 caliber due to having several lots of pellets to choose from. I set the tool’s bores at .260″ to .254″ taper on one hole and .260″ to .252″ taper on the other. The R3M .25 cal. mags are tapered from .257″ to .252″ We can put several more holes in the block if the rolling concept yields anything at all.
Not to state the obvious but you already own a tool of this nature.. push them through you R3M mags.. you wouldnt want to size the skirt any smaller than the mag or they might fall out..
I must stress the point that you dont want to resize the heads.. you only want to measure them. If you resize a larger head to the size your barrel prefers the resized pellet will still spiral..
Has it proved to be effective ?? Seems like it would but I have read WingmanNZ’s information on his work with his gun and re-sizing was just not effective -vs- pellets that were sized right out of the tin if I understood correctly ??
As announced in his post there are tools for both (distinct) applications. Anyway, he has just told me that he has registred into this forum and is waiting for the approval confirmation. His email is: andlazarini@hotmail.com.
It looks like he has done that with the washers. It appears to be resizing on the heads not the skirts and the heads are what count. Now how good do they work is quite another question once they are resized.
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I´ve just ordered a “Tin” (it´s actually plastic in this case) of these pellets for testing.
and weigh 30gr in .25 cal. I need to ask the size of the head though, since i forgot. We´ll see if my WST likes them. Crickets aren´t as pellet fuzzy as EG´s but we´ll see.
Those are “made to exact specs” provided by Hurricane (the best AG dealer in Sweden) so the owner told me to try them. Those pellets are of the same “Dildo” shape as the Daystate Rangemasters