R3 .30 caliber problem and fix
The Problem:
I first noticed after about 2K rounds my velocity dropped off. That can be common, sometimes the HST needs to be readjusted. So I screwed in the HST 1/4 turn and I was back at the 890 fps I was before. I was fine for about another 150 rounds until the real problem started. The gun started behaving erratic when trying to find zero on my target. I put the Matador on the chrony and I found a strange phenomenon. When the gun was full (220 BAR) no manner where the HST was set the most I could get out of the gun was 750 fps. As the pressure in the reservoir dropped the speed conversely would rise until below 150 bar the speed was at 912. I concluded that the valve must be stuck and the reason for the change in speed is that the valve gets more resistance from the air in the reservoir the higher the pressure. The valve must be allowed to move freely in the regulator. The belleville washers are clean, the O rings are perfect and the regulator is assembled correctly. What I found was the valve stem was slightly bent. I know this problem developed over time because the gun was super consistent when I was new. . The valve stem was not too long as it was in Ed’s factory specs. I straightened the valve stem reassembled the gun and I still had the same problem.
The fix:
what I found was the valve stem was slightly oversized and a little rough. Because the stem is steel and the valve stem housing is brass the valve was getting caught/sticking and in my opinion the valve couldn’t open enough. When the gun fell below the 150 pressure setting the valve didn’t have to work as hard to move forward when the hammer hit the stem. I polished the valve stem with 220/20/400/600/800/1200/2000 grit paper on a lathe until I could see my reflection in the valve stem. The valve moved like it was on ball bearings inside the housing. The regulator gave me 24 shots with the average at 880 and the ES at 2.6 fps.
I welcome any criticism you may have about my fix. It’s is possible that I just got lucky. Hell, it’s better to be lucky than good anyway.
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Don’t we all ….. .. .. GUYS . .. a very interesting/knowledgeable treading …… and a good job by the way ….. …. .
~ Greg
I will probably pick up a regulator tester and do this the next time I pull it apart. I don’t have enough free time right now to pull it apart on a regular basis.
I agree. I already had emailed John and he said to wait until it breaks. It must be close. 😉
I know this is looked at as an isolated incident by some instead of a design program. It is a design problem. I believe every .30 will eventually experience a valve issue. Mine manifested first because I shoot a lot. You have 2700 rounds on your gun, I have 2500 on the new system alone. I expect a 2k gun to be durable, I would not me satisfied with a gun that I had to baby.
The .30 at 850 is not a good long range weapon. The round needs to be fired at least 880-900 in order for.me to justify owning the caliber. I want consistent kills out to 170 plus yards.
So through a lot of long nights, communication and experimentation I believe the R3 .30 with the Hagan fix makes the EDgun one of the best .30 calibers you can own in a bullpup
There is a non-ED Gen 1 fix now so no worries.
1. Hagan Heavy Hammer (which Ed said wouldn’t work). I call it the H3
a. Hagan HST sleeve is a plus too.
2. 3mm Hagan or other stem.
3. Reg pressure adjustment to tune.
Expect to spend money to get it fixed as ED seems reluctant to do so. I was happy to pay John for all his efforts. PM me if you want details.
DT
Ed told me a while back that no fix was coming for the Gen 1’s from him. He sent some of us a brass stem original diameter and others a stem and a heavier hammer but that was it and it isn’t clear if they are even usable. It seems there are maybe half of us that has not experience a breakage yet but many have. Although I have extra original stems I will send it to John if it breaks. About 2750 shots and counting. It does keep me from using it to plink a lot and I have a ton of the pellets on hand. On the other hand that isn’t bad for a 30 cal I guess. I think the .25s are good for about 7500 shots max before the stems break.
Turn your regulator up to 155. What you will get is 890 FPS with a super consistent shot string
We got John Hagan’s valve stem fix installed and tuned yesterday. The quality of the valve stem seems very good. Thanks Keyser for working on this problem to get it fixed.
My main complaint to Ed about this valve stem problem is that he has been spending all of his time and energy promoting his new gun the Leshiy. Then I see Ed give someone a hard time about how much someone spent to have custom parts made to fix the gun and how he is not going to reimburse people for these repairs. I agree with Ed that he should not be responsible to pay for other peoples fixes. But he should be putting this problem to the top of his priority list. No one pays for a $2000 airgun and wants to look at it and wait for Eds fix that may or may not ever come. Look at the guys that bought the Gen 1 .30s, they are still waiting. Ed why don’t you make a Youtube video showing what the new valve stem looks like and all of the changes and improvements you have made? End rant.
John Hagan’s valve stem
We started by backing out the HST two turns and then turning the HST 1/4 turn at a time. List on the left shows the HST 1/4 turn increments in speed. List on the right is the shot string with the HST set to the “860” setting shooting JSB 44gr. Reg appears to be set to 130 currently, and it is getting 21 shots.
This is a 50 yard 5 shot group I shot in 15mph winds. After this we also a shot a soda can at 73yds and 121 yds both first shot, so it is good to see the accuracy is still doing well at 100+ yards. The Edgun 30’s don’t seem to suffer with long distance accuracy problems like the FX smoothtwist barrels.
Hemn it is consuming more air. It is just at the point where it is consuming the same amount each time. I think what is going on is I’m closer to to the original design. Each shot that hit way below my ES goal saved air.
My brother Kayser…
Here what i cannot understand. … you got 28 shots…but ES was not good… and later you set the reg high and you got 20 shots with good ES….
What i can think is…getting more shots = less air consumption
Getting less shots = more air consumption
If you get less air consumption so the ES must consistent. ..if you get more air consumption that means your ES must be vary…
So..how you get less shot count with less air consumption and get more shot count with more air consumption???
I think im crazy. ..and dose not make any sense!! Isn’t it? … i don’t know. ..i can think like that…
Plz explain this to me if im wrong. ..?
John responded to my email quickly and gave me the low down. He also suggested I wait for it to break before sending it to him and modifying given my luck so far and I like that. He has a lot of time and work invested in coming up with a good fix. He tried a slew of different hammer weights and settings/combinations to arrive at a balance. I didn’t realize the new setup would require tweaking on the trigger a lot as well but that makes sense. Anyway, given how mine is shooting I will wait until something bad happens for now. Nearly 90 raccoons under it’s belt, some squirrels, and half a dozen sparrows. 😆 😉
There is a balance between dwell time of the valve and the speed at which the air leaves the plenum. The two forces that close the valve are the return spring and air pressure. Since the hammer is so heavy it can work through the extra pressure in the plenum. 140 works fine. I just wanted better. I wanted what the gun first did when it was new. For some reason my shot count hasn’t returned to the level that I had when it was brand new. The problem could be that my regulator was actually set at 160+ from the factory. To answer the question why do I have to change the HST constantly? I think I was not on the top of the power bell curve with my HST setting and pressure setting on my regulator.
John and I first thought 135-140 would protect the valve more. John’s stem is crazy strong. There is zero sign of wear on it so far. I shot over 700 rounds at our fun shoot alone. So my fears of re-breaking this valve have been put aside.
It has been a journey, not an absolute. Some people wanted an absolute answer from me instantly but that is not possible when there are no road maps. Through this process I have learned a lot. Now that I believe I have found treasure I wouldn’t trade in the journey. In other words, I am glad this gun broke.
When I hit 155 I dropped to 20 shots but the average over 100 shots (5 strings was a little more than 3 FPS). Most strings were around 2 FPS.
It’s a little bit of an air hog but accuracy is the most important thing to me.
What causes the FPS to vary? Is it because the HST is set too high and it slowly backs off on its own? Do you know how many turns on the regulator equals how much adjustment in BAR? I am getting the regulator for my Dad’s Gen 2 30 back tomorrow from John Hagan and I had him set the regulator to 140 BAR.
Shot count was at it highest at 135 BAR at 28. Problem was my ES was inconsistent. Some strings would be fantastic at 5 FPS then some strings would jump to 12-15 FPS. When I bumped it up to 140 bar I got a few less shots @ 24 and an ES of 5 FPS for most of my strings. The problem then was I was constantly having to change my HST to maintain 888. It was frustrating. I remember Ed telling me that this would happen (OK he might know his guns).
When I hit 155 I dropped to 20 shots but the average over 100 shots (5 strings was a little more than 3 FPS). Most strings were around 2 FPS.
It’s a little bit of an air hog but accuracy is the most important thing to me.
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I never asked for an upgrade, my .30 from the beginning never shot pass 650fps, I sent it to Tony Rudenko but he couldn’t fix, So I had to send it to John, I just wanted to shot the speed it was advertised 850fps, but I’m wondering how secodas 1st gen was shooting at 870-880fps since day one! Can someone explain this????? 😕